Space Café Podcast

Aarti Holla-Maini at the Helm of UNOOSA - Navigating Space and Diplomacy

December 19, 2023 Markus Mooslechner, Aarti Holla-Maini Episode 96
Aarti Holla-Maini at the Helm of UNOOSA - Navigating Space and Diplomacy
Space Café Podcast
More Info
Space Café Podcast
Aarti Holla-Maini at the Helm of UNOOSA - Navigating Space and Diplomacy
Dec 19, 2023 Episode 96
Markus Mooslechner, Aarti Holla-Maini

SpaceWatch.Global is pleased to present: The Space Café Podcast #96:  Navigating Space and Diplomacy: Aarti Holla-Maini at the Helm of UNOOSA

Episode 096 features special guests: Aarti Holla-Maini

Dive into this insightful episode of Space Cafe as Markus Mooslechner engages with Aarti Holla-Maini, the dynamic new director of the United Nations Office for Outer Space Affairs (UNOOSA). With a rich background in the satellite communications industry and a passion for space sustainability, Holla-Maini offers a fresh perspective on global space policy and its impact on society. From her personal journey to her bold vision for the future of space exploration, this episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the evolving landscape of space diplomacy and technology.

3 Memorable Quotes by Aarti Holla-Maini:

  1. "We're all one. It's important to connect with people as individuals and rally around what unites us, not what divides us."
  2. "My vision is a world where policymakers leverage all space applications, services, technologies, and data to the max for global challenges and policy objectives."
  3. "We need to invest in what is sustainable and right, focusing on space technologies that bring improvement to society as a whole."

List of All Links or Names Shared:

Choice of Music for the Spotify Playlist for the Aspiring Space Traveler:

  • Aarti Holla-Maini's choice: "The Blue Danube" by Johann Strauss II, reflecting her appreciation for classical music and its timeless connection to space and humanity.

🚀 Share your thoughts on this episode with your network on Twitter and Facebook. 

Send us a Text Message.

You can find us on Spotify and Apple Podcast!

Please visit us at
SpaceWatch.Global, subscribe to our newsletters. Follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter!

Show Notes Transcript

SpaceWatch.Global is pleased to present: The Space Café Podcast #96:  Navigating Space and Diplomacy: Aarti Holla-Maini at the Helm of UNOOSA

Episode 096 features special guests: Aarti Holla-Maini

Dive into this insightful episode of Space Cafe as Markus Mooslechner engages with Aarti Holla-Maini, the dynamic new director of the United Nations Office for Outer Space Affairs (UNOOSA). With a rich background in the satellite communications industry and a passion for space sustainability, Holla-Maini offers a fresh perspective on global space policy and its impact on society. From her personal journey to her bold vision for the future of space exploration, this episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the evolving landscape of space diplomacy and technology.

3 Memorable Quotes by Aarti Holla-Maini:

  1. "We're all one. It's important to connect with people as individuals and rally around what unites us, not what divides us."
  2. "My vision is a world where policymakers leverage all space applications, services, technologies, and data to the max for global challenges and policy objectives."
  3. "We need to invest in what is sustainable and right, focusing on space technologies that bring improvement to society as a whole."

List of All Links or Names Shared:

Choice of Music for the Spotify Playlist for the Aspiring Space Traveler:

  • Aarti Holla-Maini's choice: "The Blue Danube" by Johann Strauss II, reflecting her appreciation for classical music and its timeless connection to space and humanity.

🚀 Share your thoughts on this episode with your network on Twitter and Facebook. 

Send us a Text Message.

You can find us on Spotify and Apple Podcast!

Please visit us at
SpaceWatch.Global, subscribe to our newsletters. Follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter!


[00:00:04] Markus: Hello everyone, this is the Space Cafe Podcast and I'm Markus. 


[00:00:20] Markus: I recently returned from a business trip to ESA, the European Space Agency. I try to avoid continental flying in Europe whenever possible. But night trains are always an adventure. Like the recent one. I had my 14 year old daughter with me on this trip, because I believe that the school of life can easily compete with missing two days of class, especially in such a wonderful environment as space exploration at ESA.

[00:00:53] Everything went well, and I hope I managed to leave a lasting impression on my daughter. Time will tell. So, after our business trip, we were ready to board the train back from Amsterdam to Vienna. Half an hour before the departure, I received a message that the train would depart with a 30 minute delay.

[00:01:14] After double checking with the announcement board, we decided to have another coffee. At the cafe with Wi Fi and overpriced beverages. However, I had a strange feeling about something. So, we decided to retrieve our luggage from the lockers and head to the platform. And, lo and behold, to our surprise, we heard a whistle.

[00:01:36] And the train was ready to depart. On time! Without any delay, we barely made it and found ourselves in a wagon without toilets and made beds. Thankfully, we made it somehow to Austria. They say a little trauma helps with memory formation. I'll ask my daughter what she'll remember from that business trip in 2023 sometime in the future. The 15 hour ride gave me plenty of time to work, think, and help my daughter study for her history exam the next day. But there was something else. I'm a late preparer, so I usually get extremely close to deadlines before starting to work.

[00:02:19] However, the deadline I was approaching was novel to me. I was to give a keynote at the World Space Forum at the United Nations Office for Outer Space Affairs in Vienna. Not an everyday task for me, and I was late preparing. Still, I guess the keynote went well. Though the jury is still out, and maybe, some of you who participated can let me know how I did.

[00:02:46] But this was just the beginning. On the second day of the forum, I sat down with the new director of UENOSA, Arti Holamaini, to conduct her first long fireside conversation. in her new role. Having been inaugurated only recently, RT agreed to this despite not having reached the unofficial 100 day do not ask me the tough question safety zone limit.

[00:03:13] And it was clear from the beginning to me that RT is a director on a mission. Ladies and gentlemen, I bring you a live recording from the United Nations Office for Outer Space Affairs with Arti Holla Maini, recorded before an audience of diplomats, space industry representatives, decision makers and scientists.

[00:03:36] What can go wrong? Let's go.

[00:03:39] Aarti: you? 

[00:03:46] Markus: made a note yesterday when I talked to you. And that note reads RT. It's right here. No time for Vienna.

[00:03:56] Aarti: does that

[00:03:58] Markus: What does that mean?

[00:04:01] Aarti: What does no time for Vienna? No time for Vienna simply means that having arrived here two months ago, I find myself either in the office until very late at night, so greeting the security guards as they make their late night tours, um, or traveling, um, and working through the weekends, uh, because that That is what this job is all about, apparently.

[00:04:21] So everybody asks me whether I have, um, how I like Vienna, and my answer unfortunately is that I have no time as yet for Vienna. As yet, there is hope.

[00:04:32] Markus: But you know, this is one of the most livable cities in the world.

[00:04:36] Aarti: I've read it in The Economist many times, indeed, but for the moment it remains theory.

[00:04:43] Markus: There are a bunch of nice movies about Vienna, so maybe you could look them up.

[00:04:46] Aarti: Find me the time and I will. I don't even have time to watch movies on, on, uh, on, um, on planes. So, uh, my last trip back from COP and WRC, um, I spent the entire flight WhatsApping, uh, LinkedIn posts with Andy Peebles, uh, our, External Outreach Officer, the entire trip, and finally I had to say, all right, now leave me alone.

[00:05:08] I want to watch the last 20 minutes of a documentary that I started on the flight going to COP, which I managed to finish on the way back. So I watched one over two flights.

[00:05:17] Markus: Which one was it?

[00:05:18] Aarti: Um, Eating Ourselves to Extinction. I was actually watching it because it was homework for COP.

[00:05:23] Markus: Is it good?

[00:05:23] Aarti: It's fantastic. Absolutely fantastic.

[00:05:27] Markus: Um, Artie, just for people who work with you, who hear about you, who is Artie Hollamine? Reflecting on your journey from a legal trainee to the satellite industry leader, now to UNOSA, what was a special moment that sparked this incredible transition to you being here now?

[00:05:54] Who are you? 

[00:05:57] Aarti: You said that no, no prep was necessary, but I could,

[00:06:00] Markus: But this is, that's your life, 

[00:06:02] Aarti: question. gosh, what was it that sparked this transition? You know what? It was probably when I was on my MBA. Um, so the only reason I studied law was because my parents wouldn't let me study languages. As I said, I would wind up as a bilingual secretary. I come from a traditional Indian family where, um, you know, Either you get married and do it that way, or you have a career, but then you better have a career.

[00:06:28] Um, you know, there's no half measures. Whatever you do, you do it properly. So, um, I, I, I did law because I did law with German law to, as a compromise on the languages and on something smart for my parents. And, um, hated it. Uh, went on to do an MBA. Um, and I got the offer from HEC, the, the, one of the Grande Ecole in France, uh, but before, before accepting the offer, they called me and they said, look, you've, you meet all the criteria, you've passed all of the exams, but we really request you to think twice before accepting the offer, uh, because we think you're going to be one of the people, um, who takes, uh, the longest time to find a permanent job afterwards, um, or a job afterwards because you only have Two years of work experience as a trainee solicitor in the UK.

[00:07:19] Um, and I was like, well, I'm not staying in the law firm. I've, I've, once I make a decision, I move for better or for worse. I move. So I moved forward with that. And there was a German fair at the MBA school where all these German companies came to the campus in, in Paris. And, um. Uh, there was only two of us who could put our CVs into German.

[00:07:39] Uh, I was one of them and I was interviewed by Mercedes Benz and Daimler Benz Aerospace called DASA for those. Older people who remember DASA and, um, uh, DASA invited me for an assessment center in Munich and I wound up being the first person in the whole promotion of the MBA. So we started in September by the end of, by November, I had a job, um, for one and a half years time down the road.

[00:08:05] So that got me into the space sector and here we are.

[00:08:09] Markus: You said your parents didn't want you to, uh, study languages. Now you speak a bunch of them. Is this a fun game you're playing with your parents?

[00:08:19] Aarti: So, uh,

[00:08:21] Markus: how how many languages was that again?

[00:08:22] Aarti: kind of five,

[00:08:24] Markus: Five. That's. English.

[00:08:26] Aarti: English, French, German, Hindi, uh, sorry, Punjabi and, uh, Dutch. My husband is Dutch.

[00:08:34] Markus: Okay. That's impressive. 

[00:08:35] Aarti: So, you know what? I lost my father last November, um, uh, just over a year ago. And until a few days before he died, he was still speaking Swahili with my mother because they could use this language knowing that I wouldn't understand. So I don't know who was playing the game, but there you have it.

[00:08:55] Markus: but now you're, um, you're settling down in Vienna in a new city? That wasn't the first time now being in the Alpine region, you're coming from, uh, Munich. That was your former destination.

[00:09:07] Aarti: No, I come here from 

[00:09:08] Brussels. 

[00:09:09] I was in Munich, uh, in 97 to

[00:09:12] Markus: Okay. Okay. So juggling a high profile career. And the family and everything. What are the deeper, deeper philosophies that guide you through all of this?

[00:09:27] Not even having time to visit Vienna, so how do you do all this? What are your key philosophies to take you through that moment in life?

[00:09:38] Aarti: to be very present in the moment, uh, to try not to feel guilty because I think guilt is probably the most useless emotion, uh, ever, um, to be committed to what you do, uh, to mean what you say, to say what you mean, uh, and to make sure that where you are right. You are really being true to yourself. So I would not be here if I did not feel that I had an opportunity to really make a difference.

[00:10:04] And I feel that that has been something that has driven me from the get go. That's why I was, I was never happy in the law firm. You were in a, I was just, you know, servicing companies where decisions were making, were being made that would move something. And I knew I wanted to be there where I could move something.

[00:10:23] Markus: What is it that you're trying to move in your new role?

[00:10:26] Aarti: Improving, improving people's lives. That's it. Simple as that.

[00:10:32] Markus: I had, um, Niklas Hedman on my show last year, and of course he was in a very thankful place seeing the end of his He could talk very openly about, the role of UNOSA, the role he was in in UNOSA. And there were a bunch of interesting things he shared. And one of those things were that he sees the main problems in finding agreements, in finding consensus, in finding ways to bring consensus building up to speed with technological evolution and technological advances.

[00:11:23] What are your answers? To those very, very big questions.

[00:11:28] Aarti: Um, I said something already on the panel that I was moderating before about this. I think it's very easy to look at the multilateral process around space like COPUOS and criticize it. It's very easy. Um, and while I was still in industry, um, It's not that we criticized it, but we didn't really pay too much attention to it.

[00:11:51] We didn't consider it so relevant. Now that I'm on the inside, I understand very much the relevance and I appreciate a lot more, um, what it is and why it. Why it needs to be maintained. Um, as I said, I think it's very, very easy to look at, um, this process, these, these bodies, Usa, Copus, and say, you know, they're, they're not fit for purpose anymore.

[00:12:17] They can't keep pace, blah, blah, blah. At the end of the day, you have to say, what would be the solution if they weren't there? Um, you know, in what fora would the long term sustainability guidelines have been, uh, discussed and concluded? Would they even have been concluded? And I doubt it, because Vienna, uh, has this really, really long standing, uh, legacy historical base of knowledge and know how.

[00:12:46] Um, You, within permanent missions here. They're not just civil service, civil servants and international diplomats. You have space experts who are within, uh, the permanent missions, uh, and, uh, they hand over to their successors and so on. And so you have this continual, continuity and a depth of knowledge, which I'm not sure is present elsewhere.

[00:13:10] And that knowledge is repeatedly convened here in Vienna, and I, I don't think there are alternatives that would work well. Um, some people say, what about the ITU? Because their industry has a voice. Yeah, we as the space sector, I've said this before, I'll say it again, the space sector has suffered hugely. Because of industry being, uh, having, having a very loud voice within the ITU. It's a pay to play organization and it's not just the ITU, it's anywhere. So one of the things that came out from that documentary that I managed to watch, um, Eating Ourselves to Extinction was the fact that, um, eating meat on our planet is one of the.

[00:13:51] Biggest, you know, if not the biggest issue that drives deforestation, that drives GMOs, that drives so many things which are bad for the planet, bad for the environment, and so on and so forth. Um, and Fowl, uh, did a report on that, but because of, uh, industry lobbying and, uh, being members or whatever, um, that report was never published.

[00:14:15] As a result, you go to COP and the, the topic is It's not really discussed as it should be. That's not right. I'm here to foster an honest conversation on what needs to be done and what needs to change and what, what is right and what is wrong. There are certain right answers. And when it comes to the multilateral process on space, COPUOS is the right answer.

[00:14:36] Does it need to evolve and be a little open and be a little more flexible? Sure. Absolutely. And Secretary General was not. Was not, uh, uh, um, shy in saying, you know, there's a reason we chose you from industry, whatever, I, I don't, I guess it's the industry background and this notion of, you know, reporting to CEOs and driving tangible outcomes, otherwise you get fired.

[00:14:59] That's what happens in the private sector. Um, Uh, so, so I think there, there are ways and means to maintain the integrity of the process that we have, which I think is all vital, um, while allowing change, uh, important change that needs to come, but without changing the structure.

[00:15:19] Markus: wHat do you think is your secret power in all of this?

[00:15:24] Aarti: I'm not sure I have secret power. Um, I, I think everybody's, I, okay, I think all of us have our own superpowers. And for me, I know that I perform best when I can be me. And, that's one of the things I actually, um, struggle with here, uh, uh, a colleague said to me, you know, at COP you spoke to a room of 2, 000 people, um, and you nailed it, God, the way you commanded the room, and here you only have a few people, yet you were, you were clearly a bit, a bit rattled yesterday, you're not quite, you know, you weren't quite in your element yesterday, and I said, yeah, because I feel so intimidated here.

[00:16:05] The first time I came into one of these rooms to speak, I was like, Oh my God. And I meant to be the boss. I mean, I really find that quite, quite intimidating. What was your question again?

[00:16:16] Markus: The superpower.

[00:16:16] Aarti: the superpower. Right. So, so. It's hard when you have to, when you feel you have to put on a mask or put on a costume and behave something which you don't naturally see yourself. For me, everybody's superpower comes when they're allowed to be themselves, but when they are consciously on a journey of self realization and self improvement.

[00:16:43] Markus: There are many, many, um, question attached to this. I w I would love to come back to them in a second. Um, but there's one, one thing I still would love to dive in a little more. Yesterday, Elon Musk, um, attempted another launch of a Falcon 9 rocket, it got scrubbed. So he, this guy, as we know with SpaceX, he seems to be doing whatever he wants to do, um, in many fields successfully.

[00:17:11] How Do we get all this under control? What is, what is going on in the space industry? We have unilateralism, we have bilateral, um, um, needs, of course, then we have markets deciding on over political institutions. So how do we get that under control? What is going on at the moment?

[00:17:37] Aarti: So the first thing is, it's very easy to, it's, it's very easy to get Irritated and annoyed by all of these, you know, the cowboy type behavior. We often hear about Space is now the Wild West. It's very easy to get rattled by all of that. At the end of the day, the only way that we're going to make progress is by identifying the right questions and working diligently to finding their answers.

[00:18:04] Doing the studies, convening the right people, um, uh, and working solidly towards that. And in this case Nobody can control the Elon Musks of the world. Uh, they, you know As a result of the market economies in which we live in, they are where they are, and they continue to, to work within the frameworks that exist.

[00:18:29] The only thing we can influence is those frameworks. And that's where our work, and the work of COPUS, uh, and the work of USA in bridging the gaps, um, between, uh, bridging so many knowledge gaps, really. That's where that work becomes so important. So We have the long term sustainability guidelines, for example.

[00:18:53] The value of any guidelines, recommendations, treaties, best practices, whatever it is, the only value in them is when they're implemented. So, while we ticked a massive box by adopting them, we have to now move to implementation. Right? And, as I said earlier, even if one country does it, it puts all the norms, regulations, rules, etc.

[00:19:16] it wants in place. If there's a collision tomorrow, it affects us all. It affects every nation state. So that's why the multilateral process has to be underscored. It has to be reinforced. That's where our, the other superpowers of interpersonal skills, being able to engage with people, being able to win their trust, and being able to keep them at the table, and not, not have those dialogues be politicized, that's where that becomes so fundamental.

[00:19:45] We should remember that. A year, a year ago, when was it when these guys launched their space tourism? They all did it one after the other. That's when space really became front and central for the layman. And that's a great thing. Because we, in our, in our rooms, meeting rooms, and so on, we're never going to be able to achieve that.

[00:20:09] So you need these people to drive a certain momentum. But they also are the motivators, the catalysts, which will drive momentum elsewhere, like here. And that's why we're here.

[00:20:21] Markus: How do we get faster decision making? Because it seems that, because in the, in the session, we just heard before our conversation that we're having right now, we heard that there are so many uncertainties, especially down to what kind of language we should be using to communicate with one another. So now if we're talking about those very basic and.

[00:20:42] Fundamental questions. How do we get into faster decision making that meets the requirements of the pace of technological evolution?

[00:20:53] Aarti: I don't think that we tell our stories well enough. I don't think people are aware of how challenging it is, even today, um, for, for operators, um, SSA companies and, and systems to actually do their jobs. Um, Stuart mentioned it in, Stuart Bain from Northstar, he mentioned it earlier.

[00:21:17] Um, that the, the number of near misses, the number of collisions that are actually happening, it's already there. You just don't hear about them all the time. You might hear about the odd near miss because somebody posts something on LinkedIn. But in fact, they're happening every day. They're happening all the time.

[00:21:33] We will find ourselves in a situation of, like, like for climate change, where, you know, we're trying to claw back time. It's already beyond the point of no return. Right? In space, we're not yet at the point of no return. We still have a chance to get it right. But for me, this is where we need to, um, rally the member states around what unites them and not what divides them.

[00:21:59] Um, and there are so many, um, Fabulous stories, um, about how, uh, you know, people who've been stuck in earthquakes, um, have, uh, or, or have been stuck, or, let me give you a concrete story. Um, years ago, we were trying to protect the C band, one of the frequency bands essential for emergency communications. We were going to the World Radio Conference.

[00:22:23] And Toraja, one of the members of the association which I led back then, uh, had told me that, um, in one of these, uh, boats that was carrying refugees, not refugees, uh, yeah, well, yeah, refugees from, from, uh, across the Mediterranean to, to Greece, um, had, was about to collapse. There was a doctor on board who had a satellite phone, um, but it was, it was out of credit.

[00:22:49] He had no credit. He only had the emergency button that he could press, and he pressed it. And it went straight to Toraja's hotline. Toraja does satellite phones like Inmarsat, Iridium, um, and Toraja, uh, notified the Italian Coast Guard who went and saved, you know, the, the 35 people who were on board of that boat.

[00:23:09] Um, and that was thanks to the C Band. So we brought this kind of story, and there are many such stories, yeah, which are amazing, captivating, inspiring, that drive home to regulators why they need to not just think technically about where should the comma be, what should the word be, but realize that what they are talking about has real world consequences.

[00:23:33] Right? And so, we have to tell those stories better, we have to, um, tell the good ones, we have to tell the scary ones, about the near misses, about the collisions that are happening every day. We have to tell them all better to drive home that, listen, this is about, you're the ones who can make the difference.

[00:23:50] But it's not going to work if you're going to stay here for another 10 years. And if you're worried about losing, uh, your, your, your, uh, ability to take these decisions here because you're perceived as taking too long, um, then you, you better look at what's happening. In the field of space sustainability, the FCC is already taking decisions.

[00:24:10] Andrew Faiola mentioned that, look, they've decided to fine Dish Network for failing to carry one satellite to graveyard orbit. They've also implemented the five year rule to de orbit LEO. Leo Satellites. The international rules say 25 years. They've said, well, nobody's telling us. Otherwise we are going to accelerate, right?

[00:24:28] Is it a bad thing? You could say it's a bad thing. This undermines the international process. No, it's a good shit. Good thing. Lead by example, lead by example, but USA, bring them in front of the others. Bring the UK who's doing incentive based regulation in front of the others. Let's talk. Show what you're doing to the other member states. them, would this fit for you? Is this the right thing for you to do? There are so many regulators who want to regulate, but they don't know what to regulate. They don't know how. They don't know what are the rules that they need to put in place. It's COPUOS which has that historical knowledge. Who's been thinking this to death for the last 10 years, right?

[00:25:06] Markus: Whose role is it to tell those stories that you just

[00:25:09] Aarti: So that's part of the role of our office. I mean, capacity building is enhancing knowledge. It's enhancing capabilities. It's fostering expertise and, and, uh, uh, dissemination of knowledge. That's very much our role, but we want everybody who works in space to be an ambassador for space. We are actually, if I can share with you, we are launching something, uh, called the UNUSA Space Bridge.

[00:25:33] Um, the USB, if you will. Um, so, uh, we, it's our vision to really convene the right, stakeholders at the right time on specific topics, um, to ask the questions and to determine what might the right answers be, what actions need to be taken, who are the right people to take those actions, yeah? We see knowledge gaps.

[00:25:58] As I said, I was in Dubai, I was sitting at COP, satellite imagery everywhere, because of course this audience knows that satellite is key to, uh, for climate change. We wouldn't know there was a climate crisis, climate, climate crisis if we hadn't seen it from space. Yet, when I convened the space agencies, who were all making a pledge at COP, I said, guys, do you realize that three miles down the road at the WRC The precise frequencies which are used, uh, for most of these high resolution pictures that we see all around us, um, are actually being considered to be given away, um, to Mobile Terrestrial for 5G.

[00:26:36] They had no clue. So we see there is a gap to bridge, uh, between space agencies on the one hand, or COPUOS delegates, if you will, and, uh, national telecoms regulators. Just as there is a bridge to be built between, um, COPUS delegates and industry. Or between space and non space. Between USA and other entities within the UN system.

[00:27:02] There are multiple bridges that need to be built to, to, uh, bridge knowledge gaps. That's on us.

[00:27:12] Markus: That brings me back to, to your role as, as the director of UNOSA. As the new director of UNOSA, what's the legacy you dream of leaving behind?

[00:27:23] Aarti: At this point I'm wondering whether I'll make it through my one year contract. I am not thinking about any legacy. I'm not thinking about legacy. Um, I'm also not a politician and I'm not I'm not out here to live a legacy, uh, but what my definition of success, um, of being here one year, two years, or however short or long a time it might be, will be if we have managed to drive some kind of change, transformational change for the betterment of the planet, for the betterment of people's lives on the planet.

[00:28:00] Um, that could be. Um, that could be in the field of, uh, space sustainability, it could be in the field of space for education, it could be, um, in, uh, making sure that we, we get some international rules on, uh, using, uh, SATCOMs for, um, more direct flights. We know that every European flight flies an extra 42 kilometers, um, before getting to its destination.

[00:28:25] Why? Because they don't use satellite. They don't use it. Uh, they need to.

[00:28:30] Markus: Tell me more. This is interesting.

[00:28:32] Aarti: So, flights, uh, I'm not an aviation expert, but flights need to stay within the range of certain, certain, uh, radars. They also need to make sure that they, um, they don't, uh, uh, overlap with each other, collide with each other, right?

[00:28:45] There's a whole air traffic management system in place which enables efficient, uh, and safe aviation. What we know that if you use, for example, the European Space Agency's IRIS system, um, you can enable more direct and safer routes, which would drive shorter flights. And you know that transport, aviation is, uh, I think it's accountable, aviation is accountable, I think, for 2 percent of carbon emissions.

[00:29:13] I don't care if it's 1 percent or 2%, everything makes a 

[00:29:16] difference, 

[00:29:16] Markus: This is, this is, mind blowing, because if you take a look at, you know, those real time 

[00:29:21] flight, um, uh, apps on your, on your smartphone, you can like track any flight that's going on right now. I'm like, there's bazillions of flights going on right now in Europe, 

[00:29:31] times 42 kilometers.

[00:29:33] Aarti: Yeah, so I don't know, but if you, I'm sure there's somebody who should study that and who can do the math and come up with what does that mean in terms of carbon emissions, right? So these are the kind of gaps that we as USA through our capacity building want to bridge. Take another one. So, um, IUU

[00:29:51] Markus: I like that 

[00:29:52] Aarti: I'll give you another one. You'll like it better. Trust me. Um, so I had to present to Costa Rica during one of our technical advisory missions a few weeks ago, um, on why space matters. And, um, one of the examples I gave them was, uh, they, they rely on fishing. Fishing is one of their big export food exports generally, but fishing is a big one.

[00:30:14] Um, they had used radar to try to control illegal fishing, illegal boats coming into their waterways and, um, the radar had broken down. They didn't have the national capabilities to get it functioning again and maintain it and all of that. Peru, on the other hand, had used a satellite system. And Peru was losing 300 million per year in illegal fishing, okay?

[00:30:40] They put a law in place which obliged any boat coming into the Peruvian waters to, um, use satellite, uh, communications technologies. Um, and, and to report on their, on their fishing. Now, what illegal boats do is typically they switch off all of their transmission equipment, so they can't be tracked. But the thing with satellite is you can see them through the clouds, whatever, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:31:04] It doesn't matter whether you have switched them off or not. You can still see them. So through the combination of satellite communications equipment on the boat, satellite imagery, watching from the sky and putting a law in place. So it all goes down to policymaking. Right? Empowering the policy makers to drive change.

[00:31:19] They reduced their illegal boats by 300 to 40 in one year, in 2020.

[00:31:26] Markus: Simple as 

[00:31:26] that. 

[00:31:27] Aarti: Yeah, but now what happens? Those boats sail to China. Let's not go down the carbon emissions of sailing and na, na, na. I don't know about that. But the point is, it's just like space sustainability. If one country acts, yes, it's good, but we need more to act.

[00:31:41] That's why the multilateral process, USA as the global custodian of space for the SDGs, is so fundamental. We need every country to implement such a, a fishing law. And to, uh, to root out IUU fishing. You see what I mean? 

[00:31:56] Did you like that story better? 

[00:31:57] Markus: I like that very

[00:31:58] much. 

[00:31:58] Aarti: you see? There's more!

[00:31:59] Markus: That brings me to the sustainable space exploration. What's your, do you think that technology is a solution?

[00:32:09] Aarti: Technology is a solution to many things and probably we've become so dependent on it in society that we can't resolve the problems coming from it without it.

[00:32:17] Markus: Good. What's the boldest vision in all of this? From you personally for the future and when it comes to sustainable space exploration using technology, what's your boldest vision?

[00:32:32] Aarti: And you said we didn't need any prep.

[00:32:36] Markus: We have time.

[00:32:38] Aarti: You don't have time for me to email my team and say, give me an answer guys. Um,

[00:32:43] Markus: Now this should, this should encourage you also to think bold.

[00:32:49] Aarti: I thought you were going to just stop and think. You think I don't do enough thinking? Uh, my boldest vision of space exploration. Um, I don't know. I don't know what's, ask me the question in a different way. Maybe that'll help. 

[00:33:05] Markus: Now you're playing the ball back to me, I like that. You're buying time, right?

[00:33:10] Aarti: No, 

[00:33:10] I'm trying to 

[00:33:11] Markus: Now do you think, so what's your, what's your boldest vision when it comes to using Technology, space technology or technology in space to help us come to terms with our earthly mundane problems.

[00:33:28] Aarti: My vision is a world where we have every policymaker leveraging all the different space applications, services, technologies and data to the max for the achievement of multiple global challenges and policy objectives. That's my vision.

[00:33:50] Markus: That 

[00:33:50] brings us back to the stories that need to be told, to be heard in the public sphere. Now tell me something, why? 

[00:33:57] Aarti: communication

[00:33:58] Markus: keep seeing a recurring problem and the recurring problem is there is no profound understanding for the importance of communication.

[00:34:08] And Enough budget for communication to get all those stories out into the world, especially also 

[00:34:14] the stories you just mentioned, the benefits of earth observation, not only in numbers or for economic reasons or whatnot, but also the benefits for whoever the, the Austrian farmer in the 

[00:34:29] Alps 

[00:34:29] who 

[00:34:30] is now understanding better 

[00:34:33] why 

[00:34:34] snow keeps not coming anymore and what he could do in turn with his.

[00:34:39] Aarti: his fields, or whatnot, grow crops differently. So,

[00:34:43] Markus: So, why is there no deeper understanding 

[00:34:45] for the importance of proper communication?

[00:34:51] Aarti: I, I'm not sure I would call it communication. I think, you know, we were told as industry, um, that we're not, we were told by policymakers, this in my previous life, we're not here to do your marketing for you. Uh, which assumes that, oh, this is just business that wants to sell. I think there is a fundamental failure.

[00:35:16] Um, um, to appreciate, um, or to give time and to, to take time to understand how these technologies are not just enablers, but really drivers of change. Um, and I think that's influenced by money. Um, we,

[00:35:43] Markus: Is lobbying a good thing?

[00:35:45] Aarti: lobbying is necessary, but I do think one has to keep the money out of politics. And at the end of the day, at the end of the day, we're talking, policymaking is politics.

[00:35:55] And you have to keep the money out of it, especially when it comes to space. You might have a couple of individuals which are very wealthy, but if you take Um, all the satellite operators, um, okay, let's leave out Amazon and SpaceX for the moment, but if you took, if you take the majority of satellite operators in the world and you put all of their annual revenues together, you might have the turnover of Vodafone globally.

[00:36:23] That's That's the scale of, you know, that's the order of magnitude of difference that you have in, um, lobbying power of satellite against other sectors. We're a victim of our own efficiency. You can see the globe, you can see a third of the globe with one satellite. You don't need an office in every Uh, member state, um, and yet it's only through having a physical presence in a country that you're going to be able to do to engage locally with that specific, um, With specific policy makers there on the ground.

[00:37:02] Again, that comes back to why our job and our responsibility at USA is so important. Because without, um, you know, a central, uh, focal point at the UN level, which is only for space, um, you know, and which doesn't have to be neutral. We don't have to be neutral. We are here only for space. For satellite operators, for satellite industry, for satellite, um, uh, for space agencies, for anybody who has a vested interest in space, we are their, we're their voice.

[00:37:33] To, to the extent that we're pushing for the global good, and we are. So, I think it's about, um, uh, Investing in capacity building because it's the only way we can empower, um, and, and almost, um, uh, almost shame, shame people into taking actions that they should do. They really should do, if they care about, um, change on their territory and, and people.

[00:38:08] Markus: You mentioned, um, yesterday, the term custodian. 

[00:38:12] for sustainable development goals for the SDGs in your role at UNOSA. So how do you envision the integration of space technology in achieving these goals? What are the key technologies?

[00:38:26] Aarti: we're, so the UN is the custodian of the SDGs. We're the custodian of space for the SDGs. And, uh, there are so many different ways. In which space helps them, right? Whether it's climate monitoring, early warning, uh, climate action, whether it's bridging the digital divide, uh, bringing healthcare and education to all, um, uh, uh, integrated applications.

[00:38:49] I mean, there's so many different ways in which space does that. What, what's the question around that?

[00:38:54] Markus: No, no. I'm just wondering what, if you have favorite technologies that are very close to your heart, um, above others that could help resolve our SDG issues.

[00:39:07] Aarti: I don't have favorites. I mean, I came into this job from the satellite communications. Um, so I came telling the office about all these different case studies, which are largely digital divide related. Um, so, you know, whether it's bringing education to all, bringing healthcare to all, uh, just connecting people who are, you know, taking people from zero connectivity to 4G within the space of two months.

[00:39:31] Again, transformational. Um, to learning very quickly about Earth observation and climate change. So I knew the satellite communication story for climate change, but I didn't know the Earth observation remote sensing story. Uh, and that's something I'm learning, and that's I'm getting very excited about that because that is more obvious, um, for policy makers.

[00:39:54] Um, I think it's far more obvious than, than satcoms. Um, I'll give you one more story. It's really cool.

[00:40:02] Markus: Go ahead, I'm all, all

[00:40:03] Aarti: It's something I learned in at cop, um, uh, you know, from space with this high resolution imagery. If we don't lose the frequencies at the World Radio Conference of the ITU closing this week in, in Dubai.

[00:40:16] Um, so you, we all know deforestation is a problem. When you use this high resolution imagery from space, you can see when the single road is being, uh, uh, deforested into the forest, which is used to drive up the deforestation equipment, and in Brazil, by using this tech, using satellite imagery, they, um, I think last year, they did 40 raids Just by seeing that small road, which you wouldn't be able to see with regular satellite imagery.

[00:40:49] It had to be high resolution, okay? And they prevented deforestation on 40 different occasions. That goes to climate change. That goes to sustainable development goals. That's the power of space. So I find that really

[00:41:00] exciting. You 

[00:41:01] Markus: It is. Absolutely. Um, Artie, you've seen the world. You speak six languages. You've seen the world. You've five, five Austrian, by the way, German and Austrian, that's different languages.

[00:41:15] Aarti: can do that.

[00:41:16] Markus: You've seen the world.

[00:41:17] You've seen companies, you've seen big platforms, um, in, in many fields. What is it that we can learn? As humans to make it into the future, um, in a meaningful way, um, as a society, when it comes to consensus building, when it comes to, um, different forms of policymaking, because I mentioned that I do this mind collider project with CERN and with ESA, just.

[00:41:48] To take a look at those places and find out what we can learn from these places who have been around now for decades, and that they would bring together thousands of people, and at the end, there's a Nobel prize. So what's the secret sauce? How do you do it? What can I learn from you? And now I'd like to find out from you, from your, what you've seen in the world.

[00:42:09] What is it that we all can learn in our fields? To make it into a meaningful future.

[00:42:17] Aarti: Um, the most obvious thing that comes to mind is that we're all one. Uh, we're, it's very, I mean, whether you think of an office, whether you think of a company, whether you think of, uh, the negotiations and the discussions in COPUOS, uh, it's so easy to find things that divide us. It's, it's easy, it's obvious.

[00:42:35] Um. You know, I sit in meetings, I sat in meetings in New York in September, October, where I saw regional blocs or countries making statements, whereas I just saw the individual who was following an instruction from a capital, but I didn't see the individual. Just saying necessarily what he or she believed and I really, for me, it's really important to connect with people as individuals and, um, you know, in, at the IAC in Baku, I had the privilege of, of, um, meeting, uh, an American astronaut called Ken Bowersox and he, he told me a story, he said, you know, when we were coming back, um, uh, there was Uh, me, I think he was a fighter pilot.

[00:43:26] He said there was another American astronaut who was, um, who had worked at Los Alamos where they did the nuclear testing. There was a Russian fighter pilot. He said, we were three cold warriors and we were meant to land in the Pacific. We didn't, we wound up landing in the middle of Kazakhstan, um, which wasn't planned at all.

[00:43:44] But when we landed, we hugged each other and we said, we're home, know, and I found that. So incredible. And I said, wow, I wish I could bring you and that Russian astronaut to the next COPULUS meeting, just to remind, remind everyone how, um, that's what counts. We have to rally around what unites us and not what divides us.

[00:44:07] When we interact with people, um, be they representatives of countries, like a delegate to a delegate or a boss to staff or person to person, we have to connect with the people. And we have to really try to, this sounds totally utopian, everybody would say, yeah, yeah, you're new, you're new to the UN, you're naive, you're coming in with all of these hopes and dreams, but I don't know, you have to hold the course, you have to stay the course and just be you, and, and hope that some of it leaves something good behind, right?

[00:44:35] What else can you do?

[00:44:36] I 

[00:44:37] Markus: Exactly. I 

[00:44:38] think we need those utopian ideas also. And I'm sorry for my audience now, because I keep repeating myself, but it fits so nicely. Um, I keep making exactly those experiences that you mentioned in my life. I get to travel also quite a bit. And now I'm only making Good encounters with human beings, no matter where I am, no matter, be it in the Brazilian jungle, be it in India, be it in Africa, wherever.

[00:45:05] So, I'm wondering, is it a stroke of luck, or is it that humans are just Better than we are. We were all made to believe maybe we should never forget that the media and social media That's a game that's being played also and it's and if we take that too, seriously Maybe we get the wrong picture picture of what makes us humans and in fact, I truly believe because this is the experience I keep making I keep Making good encounters with human beings and I, I would, I wouldn't say so if it weren't true.

[00:45:41] So maybe, maybe the world is a lot better than we think it is.

[00:45:47] Aarti: think it's a choice. I think we can choose to look for the good, we can choose to look for the bad. Um, and we have to make a conscious effort to continually and repeatedly reach deep and see the good. And bring it out. Um, uh, I've made experiences in recent weeks where, uh, I felt I showed such good will and I felt that, wow, all I'm getting back is, you know, words I shouldn't use.

[00:46:16] But, um, but, but okay, how do you change it? You just keep reaching deep and giving more good and eventually it will come back. That's all you can do.

[00:46:26] Markus: Absolutely. 

[00:46:27] Um, the Summit of the Future 2024 

[00:46:32] is an important term here at, um, the World Space Forum. Looking ahead to this summit. Where UENOSA aims to be an enabler without a specific mandate. So what defines success for this event for you?

[00:46:51] Aarti: This event or the Summit of the

[00:46:52] Future? 

[00:46:53] Markus: The summit. 

[00:46:54] Aarti: So, for me, you know, the Summit of the Future, um, is a continuation, well not for me, but it's a continuation of the Summit of the SDGs, which took place this year, in September. In the declaration that came out of the Summit for the SDGs, there's no statement on space for the SDGs, which is mind blowing.

[00:47:10] And it was the G77, so, developing countries, who sadly, um, and I think, uh, uh, I'm, Unwittingly gave it away in negotiations. There was a line in the negotiations and it was given away because, you know, these, it's, you know, okay, I'll give you that if you, if you give me this. It was, it was, it was lost in the negotiations.

[00:47:32] Um, so for me, now we, we have been given a platform. The, thanks to the Elon Musk's of the world, space has become very, very prominent. Good, let's take the good, let's leave the bad. Um, and the Secretary General, I mean, he had just landed back from, And I met him the next day and he spoke to me about COPUS.

[00:47:53] He spoke to me about space. So I was like, I cannot believe that you understand and know about this and that you take the time for it. I was amazed, right? But he has elevated space, elevated enough, but he's elevated space and he's given us an opportunity, um, with which to drive home the value and the importance.

[00:48:12] Of, of, of space and of the work that we do and of cop with as a multilateral, um, as, as the, the best, the optimum multilateral decision making, making platform that we have. Uh, and we have to seize that opportunity. I know that in Vienna there's um, often, uh, uh, you know, uh, a fear that, oh gosh, if something comes from New York, well then we should not embrace that.

[00:48:34] Do it's, the train is running. It's either you get on it, or you get run over by it, right? So, we need to get on it, and make sure we're driving it. Um, and that's fine. We need it to reinforce us, because right now, with what's happening in space, um, the question is, what is the, the role, the relevance, and the impact of, of this house?

[00:48:55] Uh, the, not just UNUSA and COPUOS, but the UN generally, that is the question which is being asked, which the Summit of the Future is trying to respond to. And we have valid, very valid responses. We know that we have, from all of the stories that I told you, I mean, it is clear. It's just a question of driving home that understanding, uh, which will, which will support us, uh, to do better work and more work in the future.

[00:49:18] Markus: You anticipated my next question already, um, a couple of minutes ago. For you personally, what would constitute a successful Outcome of the the World Space Forum.

[00:49:29] Aarti: The world's space forum.

[00:49:33] You know, people say, oh, these events, it's just talking. There's a lot to be had from convening the right people around the right topics. Yeah. Um, this year I inherited the World Space Forum. I came when the program was largely in place. Um, there was the one topic of space sustainability where I insisted, insisted with my team that that's mine.

[00:49:56] I want to be on that. Um, and, and so I moderated it and next year. Working hand in hand with our German delegates, I would like to be more implicated in defining the program and making sure that we have the right people convened to asking the right questions, to try to get the right debate going. Too often we have people either just You know, you have events where people just make their speech.

[00:50:23] It's all about 

[00:50:24] the debate and the discussion, and it's about having an honest conversation. And so, we have done that here. We have teased out some important issues. I haven't, I've never seen an event where so much attention was given to communicating about space. I did an executive space course at the ISU, the International Space University, and one of the courses was space communication.

[00:50:46] I remember I was thinking, God, what is this waste of time? My God, have I, from this, have I understood why that's not a waste of time at all and how important that is, yeah? And that's why it's so important that we all be ambassadors for

[00:50:59] Markus: what's your key takeaway from that class? 

[00:51:03] Aarti: The key takeaways come from this World Space Forum that now, you know, it's like when I did the MBA, they were right. I only had two years of work experience. I hadn't got a clue about business. I kind of dodged my way to passing those exams and thank God landed in a job.

[00:51:18] They were, they were totally right. I just winged it. Um, but, but it's the same thing now. When I was then in the job, I. Flashbacks of what I was learning on the MBA came. So it was the same thing now when I was listening to some of the discussions here. Flashbacks from that course came and I realized now in retrospect that how valuable

[00:51:40] Markus: Mm-Hmm 

[00:51:41] Aarti: It's the same, same experience I had when I started working at DASA after having done the MBA. Yeah.

[00:51:47] Markus: Wonderful. Um, Artie, this is now gonna be fun. Um, and I . Okay. It sounds a little menacing. I have two questions at the end of our podcast. Um, I keep asking all my guests, and they may be a little unusual. So, um, more water?

[00:52:05] Aarti: If I need it, if you think I need it to

[00:52:07] Markus: No, you don't need it. So, um

[00:52:10] Aarti: throw it. One 

[00:52:18] Markus: if the call came right now, we got a place left on board of Starship to Mars, next March. Would you go? The reason I'm asking is because space travel is going to be a thing, um, in the very near future and people will be traveling quite a bit. And it's mostly going to be very boring because it's going to be a very boring and long journey. So I set up to ease the boredom. I set up on Spotify a playlist for the aspiring space traveler.

[00:53:02] And I keep asking my guests to contribute one tune to that playlist. What is it? No,

[00:53:18] Aarti: of my favorite tunes. This is a meaningless answer.

[00:53:23] Markus: no, 

[00:53:24] I'm going 

[00:53:24] to 

[00:53:24] Aarti: in Blau und Donau.

[00:53:26] Markus: Well, that's not taken. That's beautiful. 

[00:53:28] So I'm going to be putting it up right after our beautiful conversation.

[00:53:32] Aarti: But you're not, you don't want to know why I wouldn't go to Mars.

[00:53:36] Markus: I didn't dare ask. Of course you want to, you want to finish your job here first. No, right?

[00:53:45] Aarti: Well, that's one way of finishing the job, isn't it? Go to Mars. Never have to worry about the job again.

[00:53:52] Markus: No. So, so tell me, tell us the truth.

[00:53:55] Aarti: I think there is a lot. So I'm coming back to your earlier question on space exploration. I think there's a lot that we can learn from space. And there is a lot that we are learning from the study of space and deep space and so on. Uh, um, Stephen Hawking, uh, if you ever meet a climate denier, you know, send him to Venus.

[00:54:14] I'll pay his fare, right? Uh, because we learned the lessons of, of how, uh, you know, the greenhouse gases clog the atmosphere so much and so on and so forth. Um, but, uh, for me, there is no planet B. We, we have to, you know, it's not, you know, we screwed up this one, let's find the next one. No way. We're here for a purpose.

[00:54:38] Uh, we have a responsibility, uh, to ensure that our house is in good order. Um, I believe that I have found what I'm meant to do, what my purpose is. Um, and I, I don't want distractions from that. I want to do that. That also goes back to the family. Uh, I would not have come to Vienna and taken this job had I not, uh, ensured that my three sons were, you know, on their way at university and doing their thing, um, uh, because I, I, I need to do this a hundred percent.

[00:55:12] So, well, that's the same thing for going to Mars, not going to Mars, need to do a job.

[00:55:17] Markus: Wonderful.

[00:55:25] Aarti: By the way, I don't like all this joyriding and tourists into space, that's not the meaning of life, that's, well, I'm not sure what that, I'm yet to. I'm open to hearing what benefits that brings to us humanity as a whole. Um, the value of any technological advancement has got to be in, um, the, the value that it brings or the improvement that it brings to, uh, life and people, a society as a whole, not for.

[00:55:54] The urban elite when it comes to the digital divide and 5G, 6G, or the few who can afford the, the, the thousands or millions of whatever you need to pay to fly into space. This is not the purpose of technology advancement, that's not what we should be supporting. It goes back to what Stuart said earlier, you need to invest in what is sustainable and what is right.

[00:56:14] Do 

[00:56:14] Markus: Do you think that maybe now is the time in humanity, um, in the past 200, 000 years of us being Homo sapiens on this planet, that we're growing wings upward because we've sort of traveled the globe and we've discovered the remotest corner on this planet? And now we're technologically ready to grow wings and become interplanetary because then it maybe makes sense to do those playful things you were just mentioning.

[00:56:50] Aarti: No, I don't think so at all. I think the only reason, I mean, you said in our evolution as a species, I mean, evolution is generally, Reactionary to the way one has been doing something. Um, so in that terms, it's not, oh, let's go explore. It's more like, let's escape. Um, no, no, that's, that feels like it's, uh, shrugging the responsibility.

[00:57:16] You know,

[00:57:18] Markus: Totally agree. I just wanted to hear if we're on the same page. Last question, um, this show is called the Space Cafe Podcast. 

[00:57:30] It's a coffee 

[00:57:30] Aarti: Mm-Hmm.

[00:57:32] Markus: And in coffee places, you now and then have an espresso to energize yourself, especially when you're tired. So why don't you share an espresso for the mind with me now?

[00:57:46] Something that energizes. Me, the audiences who are listening now. You can pick whatever kind of topic you want to pick. What could be an espresso for the mind?

[00:57:59] Aarti: an espresso for the mind. My God. Um, I think it's always nice to end on something which is, uh, not hope. I don't like hope. Uh, fact, I mean, I think a positive story. I told you so many stories, maybe I can tell you the last one, right?

[00:58:19] So, um, as a space sector, we're really bad with data. We're really bad at collecting metrics around what we do and, and, um, you know, like In my previous role, I asked the satellite operators, one of the big things was responding to disasters, right?

[00:58:35] Whenever there's an earthquake or something, the first thing that happens is the satellite flowns are flown in. Um, the, the, you know, terminals, portable terminals are flown in and to save lives, coordinate relief efforts so I asked them, how many disasters have Have you as satellite operators responded to in the last five years, you know, uh, and everybody just looked at each other. I have no clue. We don't collect metrics and stuff. There's one story which is about space for education.

[00:59:04] Where one satellite operator really partnered, uh, in Kenya with local partners, with, um, uh, uh, people who make curricula, with education providers. And they didn't just, uh, put a satellite dish on 250 schools, focusing on marginalized girls. Um, but they actually followed it through and looked at what is the change that this is driving, 

[00:59:30] right? And they saw that do your kids go online?

[00:59:35] Markus: Yeah, absolutely. All the time.

[00:59:36] Aarti: How many hours per day, 

[00:59:37] Markus: Oh, I don't, I want to know. 

[00:59:39] Aarti: Exactly. So, in Kenya, across 250 schools, by giving one child access to, uh, something called MathsWiz, right, it's a, it's a maths tool, online, one hour per week, uh, for one year, they measured that over a year, the child's learning age would increase by 18 months. Yeah, and that's only in Kenya, as in 250 schools, and I want that to be in every remote rural school across not only Africa, across Latin America, across Asia, across everywhere.

[01:00:17] That is the size of one of the challenges that USA has in its capacity building. The bear is your expresso, hopefully,

[01:00:31] Markus: for the mind.

[01:00:32] Aarti: the month.

[01:00:32] Markus: Wonderful. Artie, thank you so much for the time. 

[01:00:38] Wonderful. 

[01:00:38] Aarti: Thank you. Thanks for having me. 

[01:00:49] Markus: Thank you everyone for sticking around with me here in our cozy coffee place. Speaking of coffee places, I mentioned in the beginning that I departed from Amsterdam. It is an experience to walk with your 14 year old past the myriad of coffee shops, unsure, how to react to what is being offered here and there and while reminiscing about one's own youth and the allure of life's adventures.

[01:01:20] Thank you all for your support and loyalty to the Space Cafe Podcast. I was recently amazed to learn that we are inching ever closer to the top 10 of some of the national podcast charts. Let's make it to the top, my friends.

[01:01:36] Please spread the word if you like what we do here and rate this show if you haven't done so already. I'm forever grateful because I know that you may have many other things you could be doing, but hey, it's a small step for you and a giant leap.

[01:01:53] You know the drill. Thanks for everyone. I'm looking forward to serving you another episode very soon. Until then, take care. Bye bye. 

[01:02:03] ​

Podcasts we love