Spaceonomics - The future of an industry seen through the eyes (and wallets) of an investor

Rockets! Satellites! Asteroids! Let's blast off into the world of space investment with engineer-turned-investor Christian Ziach. He shares insights on Europe's space race, the challenges of refueling satellites in orbit, and why asteroid mining might be trickier than we thought. 

Also: the Ariane 6 dilemma, space sustainability woes, how to turn scientists into entrepreneurs, the MASCOT mission's nail-biting success, and whether we're really ready to settle on Mars. 

Grab your space suit and strap in. We're going to the final frontier of finance!

Listen via Apple Podcasts  Spotify iHeartRadio Castbox Podcast Addict or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Key topics:
00:00 Introduction
02:33 European space sector challenges
13:19 Hot areas for space investment
26:58 Space sustainability concerns
46:45 The MASCOT asteroid mission
53:55 Asteroid mining prospects
01:00:55 The future of space industry
01:04:40 Mars colonization challenges

Follow Christian Ziach on [LinkedIn]

➡️ [European Space Agency (ESA) Ariane 6 Program]

➡️ [SpaceX Starship Development]

➡️ [NASA Artemis Program]

➡️ [Blue Origin]

➡️ [United Launch Alliance]

➡️ [MASCOT Mission to Asteroid Ryugu]

➡️ [Planetary Resources (defunct asteroid mining company)]

➡️ [Deep Space Industries (defunct asteroid mining company)]

➡️ [Astroforge (current asteroid mining company)] 

➡️ [Andy Weir's "Project Hail Mary" and "Artemis" books]

➡️ [Robert Zubrin's "First Landing" book]

Other Episodes that might interest you

1. Terhi Vapola - Greencode Ventures, Green Investments, Digital Transformation and the Future of Space Technology
2. Bianca Lins: Small Nation,

You can find us on Spotify and Apple Podcast!

Please visit us at SpaceWatch.Global, subscribe to our newsletters. Follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter!

Transcript

SCP_114_Master_Sequence

[00:00:00] Markus: Hello everyone, this is the Space Cafe Podcast and I'm Markus.

 Have you ever wondered who holds the crystal ball to the future of the space industry? Let's, uh, just forget for the sake of this episode about the usual suspects for a moment. Instead, let's picture someone who has got some serious skin in the game, whose livelihood Even depends on getting those cosmic forecasts right.

That's right, we're talking today about investors. The unsung prophets of the space age. And maybe I have a little bit of a treat for you today. Because today we're sitting down with no other than Christian Zierch. A man who's worn a bunch of hats in the space industry. From engineering the groundbreaking mascot mission, where we sort of played interplanetary darts with an asteroid. To now calling the shots at a high tech founders fund. Christians got a front row seat to the space To the Space Cafe and to the Space, not only the Space Cafe Podcast, but to the Industries Blockbuster Show.

And today we're trying to pick his brain about everything like the current state of the European space endeavor. And all I can say already is I think it's not going to be, uh, smooth. Sailing, in this respect, to the mind bending possibilities of asteroid mining. And just wait until you hear Christian's thoughts about our potential Martian future, which is not all red dust and potatoes, folks.

So, Why don't you strap in and get ready for a journey that's part rocket science and part fortune telling, and all fascinating. We might not be able to defy gravity today, but I promise your mind will be floating by the end of this episode. Let's go. Have fun. 

[00:02:33] Christian_2: Ja,

[00:02:33] Markus: so what's, what's going on in the European, uh, space sector? Um, when it comes, there's, there's been a bunch of, um, attempts to also go into the launcher business and whatnot. So what's the current state of affairs? Where is Europe headed? And how do we compare to the rest of the world? I know it's a big question.

[00:02:55] Christian_1: yeah, it is.

It is. I mean, starting, uh, with, uh, uh,

launcher industry, I mean,

uh, we have all witnessed what's, happened in the U. S. with,

uh, the, uh, several launch attempts of Starships. So I

think SpaceX is, uh, leading the pack 

and they're, yeah, they're

showing us

the

way in other words. And, uh, according to Josef Aschbacher, Europe is back.

Yeah. But

the question is, are we back with the

right vehicle? Yeah, at the right point in time, at the right, you

know,

price, and, I would put a big question mark next to it. Yeah. I mean, we see several, uh, Um, small launch providers in the making, I mean, uh, they have announced their

launch

attempts, um, for later this year, we have witnessed, 

um, what can go wrong, um, I think

a few days

ago, uh, there was this, uh, dramatic, um, stage test in, um,

Scotland. Uh, it was a test conducted by, uh, colleagues from Rocket Factory Augsburg. And, um, I

wouldn't. Overestimate the

outcome of such a

test.

I mean, it's, what I

would call work in progress, so it's perfectly fine.

And I think we will see that more often. And I think that is needed in order to fail forward.

And 

that is exactly what SpaceX was doing

over the

last years.

Not every attempt of a new launch vehicle

was successful,

but they basically

said,

we will fail. while

we are failing, we learn a lot. Yeah.

And um, all the failures

are

priced in

And, um, yeah, while doing that, we will make 

uh, progress, yeah, 

And we'll come, uh, um, yeah, Um, around

with a new class of

vehicle. We will have

a two stage,

uh, fully 

reusable launch vehicle Advent of this process. And we have to understand in Germany,

and Europe

yeah, uh, that, uh, this is the way

to go. This is the right mantra. Yeah. We should not. Be afraid of failing, yeah, of,

um, you know, uh, explosions on the launch

pad. Yeah, this

is something we

would see more often in the next months to come.

And in my understanding,

that's, that's part of the

business and all the investors backing these companies.

Yeah. I mean, I hope

they are aware of

these risks and they are aware

of the

chances

and they have

uh, financed their companies accordingly. Because, 

uh, if

we take

SpaceX

as the 

uh, best in class S company in that sense,

Yeah. It took them with Falcon one F for attempts 

to reach orbit. 

Yeah. And, and we should give our, um, startups, um, also similar chance

Yeah. Uh, to to succeed.

Yeah.

[00:05:47] Markus: We celebrated, you mentioned Josef Aschbacher, we celebrated the first launch of ARIANE 6 quite a bit. ARIANE 6 is not reusable.

[00:06:01] Christian_1: Yes.

[00:06:02] Markus: do you make of that?

[00:06:04] Christian_1: Well, what should I say? Um, it's a decision which

was taken a long time ago. It was a decision when,

uh,

it was clear that SpaceX is on a different

path that, um, they are all

in when it comes to reusability. And, um,

in, in Europe,

I think, um, the general School of Thought was like, okay,

um, if we go straight to a reusable vehicle, that might be too much

for us, yeah, for the risk appetite of

the decision makers, um, 

working with 

taxpayers money, yeah? And, um, I think they missed a chance to leapfrog, yeah? A generation, um, yeah, a generation of launch vehicle here,

yeah, and, um, Ariana 6, I mean, it will fill,

a market gap, yeah, which exists,

yeah, and it's,

uh, booked,

yeah, so, um, the

order booked is nicely filled, no doubt

about that.

But,

uh, when it

comes down to

the numbers,

yeah, um, in terms of pricing, um, we have to ask ourselves whether this vehicle is, uh,

competitive in the long run. And I have still

some strong doubts about that.

[00:07:21] Markus: Is, is ARIANE booked because of subsidies? Or is Ariane booked because it's a great vehicle and it's in great need?

[00:07:33] Christian_2: I 

[00:07:33] Christian_1: think it's

because it's a vehicle and it's hopefully available at the right point in time.

I mean, what nobody wants is, you know, a monopoly, yeah, on the launcher side, 

[00:07:45] Christian_2: yeah. 

[00:07:46] Christian_1: and, we should not be naive about, SpaceX, um, Business practices. here. I mean, they will lower the cost only

further if they face, more competition.

Uh, So all the other

launch

providers, whether they are small or big, uh, they need

to assure that they deliver on their plans

And, uh,

that will, you know, uh,

lower the prices. Yeah. And, uh, that will, uh, help us, to open, uh, space, uh, for

future businesses,

uh,

uh, which are

currently maybe,

uh, out of

reach

due to, the, um, launch cost.

Okay. Do you have any intel as to where the European launcher sector is headed? Because I could imagine that once Ariane 6 is now becoming a workhorse or is already the workhorse it was designed and built for, so I guess the next generation is already being. Um, worked on and developed. So is that next generation something completely different?

I think, um, what will change and, uh, where we see a lot of discussion is the way, uh, you know, 

EA is or will

procure, uh, the next

launch. So the procurement strategy will

change, um, especially, um, German, decision makers, asked for more

competition, they're demanding

more competition.

And I think, that is, important. And, it should not be like, okay, 

[00:09:30] Christian_2: Um, 

[00:09:31] Christian_1: only companies with a

certain

[00:09:34] Christian_2: um, 

[00:09:35] Christian_1: traction, heritage should be eligible to participate in such

a competition. We should also give, you know, uh, newbies a fair

[00:09:44] Markus: A fair chance.

[00:09:45] Christian_1: Uh, why so? Um, I mean, we've all witnessed what Uh, happened with uh, Boeing, with United 

Launch Alliance. Yeah. So, um, they followed the old,

the traditional path. They are used

to work with uh, cost, uh, plus contracts. Yeah. And we see the outcome. Um, now we have. probably two stranded astronauts

on board of the ISS. Yeah. 

And if that's, you know, Uh, the, the, the claim

here,

yeah,

to trust, you know, uh, established company, and I would say, thank you.

Maybe that's not long of the right way to uh, do a business. Yeah. Maybe, uh, other companies and, we see, you know,

how SpaceX is doing this, yeah,

uh, are in a better position and a better shape, uh,

to deliver. Now on time on cost and quality.

[00:10:35] Markus: Whereas, because we've been talking so much, not only us on the, on the show, because it's still very early, the media is full of SpaceX and of course, SpaceX know, Elon knows very well how to play that musical instrument, that organ, so to say. But what is What's happening at Blue Origin at the moment? Where are they at?

Um,

[00:11:04] Christian_1: good question. I mean, there are some rumors

out there that

uh, they are interested in buying United Launch Alliance. 

If you, 

uh, you might know that, 

uh, Blue Origin

is um, a supplier

The United Launch Alliance,

they provide, um, engine,

the rocket engine to the Vulcan

rocket.

and,

uh, they would be interested,

you know, to step into this business in order to be eligible, you know,

for the

large governmental launch contracts, which are in place.

And as of

today, uh, the

only two eligible companies

are, uh,

SpaceX. and United Launch

Alliance. And,

um, you know, they were suing each other, you know, in the past. And,

um, Jeff Bezos, um, was

really trying hard to get, you know, the foot 

into the 

door of this,

uh, multi billion business. And, uh, you know,

acquisition, which I would assume could easily afford, uh, would, um, contribute to this,

uh, larger

plan.

[00:12:10] Markus: I'd like to come back to that in a, in a minute, but I'd also like to come to your core business and your, you have your roots in engineering and your roots in DLR in the space industry, but then at some point you moved into the investment business in the, in the space industry. And I'd like to. Take the liberty to use also your expertise to look a bit into the future and you as the principal at Hitech Founders Fund, um, you are very much aware of where to place your your bets and where you, where to place your money.

So, um, wherever investors are placing their bets is a good indicator as to where something could be headed. So let me ask you this, which, which areas or types of projects in the space industry are receiving the most focus, the most funds from your end, from the founder's fund?

[00:13:19] Christian_1: Yeah, I mean, um, I would always say walk the talk, right? So, uh, where you put the money in, yeah, you're

probably on the right way here. And

um, well,

um,

I mean, you can, Uh, you see, and you are probably aware of

all my previous investments

in the space sector, yeah, and, um, currently we are very

much interested in, um, the field of,

um, yeah, dual use, uh, resiliency, um, everything what makes a significant, um, contribution 

to The 

Resiliency of our

space systems. 

Um, So I think

it's really interesting to look into

alternative GPS solutions. If we, um, see our, you know, um,

assets in a jammed environment, for instance, it can affect not only, you know,

military assets, it can affect,

planes, ships,

yeah,

which are then

guided, yeah, by jammed, um,

uh, signals.

And, um, that is, I think, a very big business

and, uh, interesting, um, investment opportunity, uh, next to it, um, given, you know,

all the risks we see in space, uh, from the growing number of space debris,

and, uh, given, you know, the fact that some actors

in space do not behave as responsible as they should, uh, it's, uh, I think

important to,

uh, Um, make our assets in space, um,

also more resilient.

And, uh, what do I mean by that? I mean, they should have, um,

you know, the capability to maneuver without regret.

That is also something what was asked, uh, for by the United States

Space Force.

We would love, uh,

to show that their assets, 

which were

also sometimes called, uh,

juicy targets for,

uh, certain

reasons.

Um, they

would love to maneuver them without

sacrificing the lifetime because you need to, uh,

fuel, you know, for all the station keeping maneuvers,

et cetera, to assure that they are uh, in the right position. And if

you have to

uh, move your satellite because

another satellite

is chasing you, spying on you, or you're under attack, or you have to,

um, avoid, uh,

collision with,

uh,

space debris.

Yeah.

Um, it, it goes all at the expense

of your

lifetime. And, um, that is something

what limits your, um, Capability in space and, uh, militaries,

especially in the U.

S., don't like to be limited,

yeah, in the usage of their assets, yeah, and they would like to see, um, means of refueling, yeah, to give them, um, Yeah,

a wider envelope, yeah, for 

their operations 

and for their maneuvers. 

And 

that is something, um, which is,

um, still, you know, in an early phase.

I mean, there are not too many companies out there.

With, for instance,

OrbitFab in the U. S.

they are already working with the U. S. Space Force, and

there are not too many players in that field in Europe or

in the rest of the

world.

I think that is, a very

important topic, even though we still don't know, you know,

how all the economics, will, pay off. Yeah. This is still, um,

Uh, very early market and time will tell how

things will, pan out at the end of the day,

Um, next to it,

Um.

[00:16:55] Markus: I, can I just ask a quick question regarding refueling, just out of curiosity? So this is a new technology applied to old technology. So is old technology, are old satellites even equipped to be refueled or aren't they bolted tight and shut because they were never intended to be refueled?

[00:17:18] Christian_1: Um, from

a design point of view, the vast majority is not equipped

to be refueled, but there are means,

you know, to live and to work with the existing design in terms of conducting refueling missions. You have to,

sometimes you have to open a valve, you have to 

open a valve. Um, remove, 

uh, certain thermal insulation layers, et cetera.

So

it requires also Um, robotic, um,

you know, systems,

um,

to do this, um, basically, um, um, maneuver and to do the entire refueling. So it's not like you can

fly to a gas station 

or a satellite with a fuel tank will come to you, uh, and, and, uh, we'll, uh, do a refill in

a few minutes.

It's, uh, not, um, It won't be like that, yeah, it will be more difficult in the early phase, but,

um, in the future, and that is something,

for

instance, OrbitFab is working on,

um, satellites will be equipped

with, um, um, 

[00:18:27] Christian_2: The, 

[00:18:27] Christian_1: um, ports with fueling ports.

and, um, the question

is, okay, uh, with these, uh, ports be standardized, uh, with these, uh, ports be, um, uh, proprietary,

uh, will we follow a kind of, um,

open standard?

Um, um, strategy.

So with an open standard, yeah, uh, because

imagine, uh, you would have a car,

yeah, and you would go to a gas station and your, um, uh, fueling port is not comfortable with what the gas station is providing or operating, 

yeah. And this is something, uh, we need to assure. And,

um, I would say,

um, the best majority of the customers is is probably 

interested in an open standard, um, solution, because nobody is

interested to,

um, depend only on one supplier.

on, on one, uh, monopoly in that field. Yeah. You want to have a choice as the customer. Yeah. You want to, um, have the freedom to fly, uh, to a gas station ABC in space in

the future.

Uh, If you, uh,

take the decision to go for a

refueling, 

[00:19:40] Christian_2: uh, strategy.

[00:19:41] Christian_1: But

of course,

um,

refueling is.

Probably only

something, especially

in the beginning, for very expensive, um, satellites in geostationary orbit, I, uh, as of

today, I would have some doubts, um,

that it would work. makes economically sense

to do in orbit refueling, for instance, in low orbit. So in low orbit, the assets need to be replenished

more often.

You need to have more satellites, um, to, do, um, your,

um, to fulfill your coverage needs,

yeah, for communication applications, for Earth observation, yeah, and you need too many satellites.

So,

um, for that reason, it makes more sense to

Replenish your satellites,

um,

after a few years rather than conducting, um,

expensive

refueling missions where you have to fly

to each and every satellite.

The effort, I think, would not justify the cost

and, um,

or 

the

benefit would not justify the cost in the very beginning.

[00:20:43] Markus: Is satellite technology, of course we're talking about a variety of different satellite uses, but are the costs generally coming down? Because it seems like the constellations that Elon Musk is putting up into orbit on a daily basis in the dozens and hundreds and thousands, they're just throwaway pieces, throwaway hardware.

It seems like they're very cheap. So I. Is that technology in general coming down? Because you're mentioning it doesn't really make sense to refuel. Um, so, so where, where do we stand here?

[00:21:21] Christian_1: That's a

very good

question 

which cannot

be that easily answered, yeah,

because what we see currently in the market is

that, I 

mean, for a very long time we have seen that the size of the satellites was

going down, yeah, that was basically the advent

of small satellites,

so to speak. Big. But over the last years, uh, we

have

witnessed that, uh, even though um, satellite builders 

uh, have the chance to

take advantage of miniaturization, et cetera, and of the usage of a commercial off a shelf, 

um, components, et cetera, uh, they have reached.

basically the limits what you can achieve in terms of, um, usability

with small satellites. I mean, we have sent small satellites to

the moon,

to Mars, uh,

to deep space.

Yeah. But,

um, if you,

um, have

more ambitious missions for

Earth observation, communications,

you have certain, um, uh,

limits, limitations, and these limitations are set 

by physics.

And, uh, you have to, uh,

go then for

larger satellites, and

that's what we see. So. So, we can save costs. Okay. Still, you can use a commercial off the shelf, but, uh, a main, you know,

um, lever here is, mass

production. Yeah. Automatization in the production.

[00:22:49] Christian_2: And, um, 

[00:22:51] Christian_1: What you're asking is basically,

um, one very.

Um, difficult

question,

uh, for all the constellation operators out there. Are they, you know,

in a position to close their business case in

the long run? Because at

the 

end of the day, you have to ask yourself, okay, you

have to, Um, finance, the design and development phase, the production phase, you have to finance lounge when you are operating

this constellation for several years and you have to make your profit down the road. 

So, and 

the question is, um, is the

outcome still financial

attractive enough 

to 

convince uh,

future investors to

finance, you know, the second

generation

of satellites, question mark.

And, uh, interestingly enough, um, Elon Musk, uh, twitted a few years ago, I don't know which kind of mood he was, uh, uh, even, uh,

he

had some doubts concerning,

you know, the viability of the business case of Starlink.

And I asked myself, uh, was 

this a kind of attempt to shy off,

you know, Other constellation operators in the communication

business and their investors, 

because 

if he has doubts to close a business case on Starlink, and I mean, he's in the best position to do that.

He has 

its own launch capacity. He uh, has

a no, uh, knowhow 

and 

the industrial means to mass produce satellites at, uh, little cost.

Yeah. And 

ef if he has still doubts the close of business case, I mean, what shall the other competitors, uh, do or say

about

this?

Yeah. And, um,

I don't know whether it

was, you know, uh,

maneuver, again,

to shy

off

the others or whether, these doubts

were

justified.

[00:24:40] Christian_2: Um, there were certain sources which claimed, okay, that last year was, you know, the first year When

[00:24:46] Christian_1: Starlink was profitable.

I mean that is something what we cannot, you know, 

verify

because

as you know, SpaceX is a

private company so they are not obliged to

publish any numbers. Yes, so it's a

box in essence, but one can only you know, estimate

Yeah. What's, uh, going on in, in, the company 

Yeah. And, uh, one can only estimate how uh, expensive

it is to launch with satellites. 

Yeah. But, uh, from what we know from,

uh, for instance, other Constellation operator, such

as one web, uh, they had a heart. time. you

know, uh, to, uh, um, arrive at the required unit costs for the first, um, satellite generation. Yeah. And, um,

my understanding that was among the reasons why we

went through chapter 11, 

uh, 

at some

point in, in the company history.

[00:25:39] Markus: I'm just wondering from my lay person's perspective, I'm just wondering where all this is headed, where all this ends, because even the limitless space of outer space is limited. So we, we just seem to be getting. the hang of constellation production and, um, and satellite production and, and, and getting cargo and freight into orbit.

So we seem to be getting comfortable with bringing matter into orbit. Into orbit, but orbit is limited. So where is all this headed? Because we already spoke about space debris. We have no viable solution, how to clean up dead hardware floating out there. So the question is, are we headed toward disaster?

Because there is a natural limit to all of this that we're doing. No matter how fantastic the business model behind it is. So how, from your perspective, how do you react to this as an investor?

[00:26:58] Christian_1: Yeah. 

Um, I, I think, um. We haven't

uh, reached the limits yet.

Yeah.

Uh, but as you, 

um, said rightly, we're, 

um, on a not sustainable

path. Yeah. 

Um, 

but, um, if we think of, um, you know, all the decisions

and actions

taken by, um, satellite operators, I mean, if they,

um, uh, fail to, um, Yeah, find a way

to use

their orbits,

you know, in a sustainable manner,

They will dig

their own grave

here. Yeah.

And,

um, that's something they cannot 

uh, afford.

So, it's in their own interest, you know, to assure.

Uh, but they behave

in a responsible manner.

uh, in, in the same time, um, since, you know, space became the

ultimate high ground also for various military applications and that we are, you know, from a geopolitical point of view, not in the best, you know,

position to, uh,

yeah, to, to find agreements.

[00:28:03] Christian_2: uh, 

[00:28:04] Christian_1: agreements between, you know,

the leading space nations, um, 

to, to, uh, behave

more reasonable. Yeah.

Um, 

we can only hope you know that all the individual actors, will, 

um, you know, act in the best interest of a sustainable usage of space.

Um, Otherwise, it, will end up in a situation that certain orbits

will be, you know, not usable

any longer for a very long time

until we decide to afford, you know, a massive 

cleanup

mission or

something like that. But the question would be who, should be accountable for this and who should finance it. Yeah.

Um, I mean, if you think of all the,

Uh, debris removal companies

out there, um, I mean,

the 

question is who will be the customer

of them in the future, right?

So uh, they have always, you know, a strong, um,

dual use exposure in my

understanding. 

[00:29:10] Christian_2: Exactly.

[00:29:13] Markus: It's like on earth, um, who is responsible for the trash we're leaving on our roadsides? Who is responsible for the cans and, and waste people just keep, it's, it's the same, same problem. It's the human problem.

[00:29:30] Christian_1: Exactly. It's our, unfortunately, our human nature. Yeah. And we all complain if we

find

a plastic bag, you know, uh, beach, yeah, but, um, yeah, financing, uh, uh,

ocean cleanup mission is also something, uh, 

what we haven't done yet. Um,

[00:29:52] Markus: Christian, I cut you short with too many questions. So were these the major projects that you think? Not only think that you're focusing on with your investments.

[00:30:05] Christian_1: I 

would

add a few

things.

So, um, you mentioned already,

um,

the 

congestion 

in space. Yeah. 

And,

um,

[00:30:17] Christian_2: Uh,

[00:30:18] Christian_1: see a

growing number of satellites and in the past, you know, it was like, okay, um, ground operators were in charge of all the operations in space. That is something we cannot longer 

[00:30:31] Christian_2: do, yeah, it's

[00:30:32] Christian_1: because the number of satellites 

have 

outgrown, you know, the means of, you know, manual control, etc. So we see uh, growing interest in, you know,

autonomy. And

capabilities which allow, um, satellites

to

be operated in an autonomous manner.

The rise of AI will, uh,

contribute to that.

And in the same time, uh, we need to think of

solutions,

uh, to, um,

yeah, enhance

the onboard, um, processing

power. And, uh, since this is also

uh, strong, 

um, consumer

of electrical power.

We need also to think of, okay, how can we, uh,

provide more power to our satellites? As you know, uh,

power and productive satellites is produced by, um, solar panels, yeah? And, And, the question is always,

okay, how

can we, uh, show

that even small satellites have enough power to fulfill their,

um, energy, um, 

[00:31:37] Christian_2: uh, consumptive missions?

And, um, 

[00:31:40] Christian_1: D Cube, for instance,

one of my portfolio companies,

um, uh, came around with a solution to, um,

print

structures for solar

panels to afford, um, even small

satellites, um, to fulfill their power and remissions. So it means the surface of the small satellite. I don't know if it's a CubeSat, but the surface itself is a solar panel.

Yeah, typically if you take, a small satellite, a CubeSat, the surface

area Is limited To, the size

of a satellite. So, and, not all the, surface areas are pointing towards the sun. So

it limits

your, power 

production means dramatically.

But 

if you

have a solar panel, yeah. Uh, and

if you can store it during launch, 

um, 

which is, uh, by far larger

than the surface area

of your main, uh, satellite body, you can, uh, produce, uh,

more power compared to what

you 

could produce with just

the surface area

of your main satellite body.

And there are different means.

I mean, I have to, um, Um, um, find means to attach such a panel to, uh, a small

satellite body, body, uh, and Decubed came around

with new

ideas, uh, uh, like origami structured, um,

panels, uh, which can

be installed in a small

volume, uh, and which allow, um, small satellites to

fulfill,

um, even energy, um, 

[00:33:15] Christian_2: needs.

[00:33:18] Markus: Could that also feed back to technologies needed on earth? So I guess there could be a dual use and you, and sometimes, or very often investments in niche applications can scale and grow. spill into different worlds also. So maybe this kind of, um, solar efficiency approach can have some scaling application on earth also, which would be beneficial to your portfolio, portfolio, I guess, as an investor.

[00:33:59] Christian_1: Yeah,

um, honestly, um, if I think, you know, of unit economics sit down on earth, I don't see it. Yeah. But, um, what you have outlining here is, um, I mean,

the right way to go

for, uh, many, um, uh, companies. Um,

yeah. I

mean, um, if you are interested, um, to do something

in deep

space. or there were even companies, um, uh, aiming to produce, um, solar 

cells 

on the moon.

Yeah. I

think Mana Electric from Luxembourg

was, um, one company, um, um, with

a plan to do that. Yeah. Um,

their initial approach was like, okay, um,

Producing

solar cells on the moon is a tall order, yeah, before we do that, that's our long term vision, we try

to do that in the desert here

on earth, yeah, we say, okay, the efficiency of these solar cells is not as high as, the solar cells which I, you know,

produced. Produced

in

a clean environment

with

um, everything perfectly calibrated, but we can reproduce them, 

uh, for a fraction of, 

uh, uh, classical approaches or cost. Yeah. 

And, um, that is a way

to

um, reduce the risk for your mission.

Yeah.

And 

to,

um, generate revenues yeah, down

the road,

uh, while

you're still aiming

for

the 

ultimate mission to do something, you know, on the surface of the moon.

And there were also other companies, um, um,

I forgot the name of one 

company 

which was in

the

um, robotic segment, uh, they, um, Offworld was the name.

Um, Offworld um, was um, about to build robotics, 

uh, robotic systems for mining

applications. First

here on earth. You know, because, um, the, 

um, 

working conditions for workers, you know, if you have a diamond mine or so, a thousand meters under the surface of earth, yeah, it's, uh, the, um, conditions are really harsh, you know, the temperature is really high.

And if you can, uh,

demonstrate

that you can do basically the same job with a robotic system, yeah, um, you can already retire many risks, which you see, uh, in space later on. And since on the surface of the moon, even though you have to realize you have vacuum, you

have radiation, you have

a different

thermal environment, but still

it's a system which has either to work on

its own, yeah, now by means of autonomy 

or,

um, 

remotely controlled.

[00:36:45] Markus: Fantastic. Christian, where do you get your portfolio candidates from? I mean, like you, you, you have to be on the road, I mean, like all the time to scout for interesting projects or where do you get those new concepts from? How do you find them?

[00:37:06] Christian_1: yeah, um, I mean, um,

we have close

ties to, um, all the

leading

research institutes,

like, um,

Fraunhofer

German 

Aerospace Center, DLR here in

Germany, Max Planck Institute.

Um,

but we also

have, um, good relationships

with all the

leading, um, universities uh, here in Germany, but also, um, due to,

alumnis in, in across Europe 

And, um, 

yeah,

it's it's a really important to, um, this is all the relevant conferences. Yeah. 

And

our aim is to be, um, you know, the first institutional investor, yeah, so, uh, as soon as, you know,

a group

of founders.

uh, stake, uh. decision to set up company we would

like next to them, yeah? That is what we're aiming for, yeah?

In 

order

to 

um, assure

that, you know, they

find the right partner from

the very beginning, 

uh, to get

to their 

company financed, 

yeah?

So

uh, yes, uh, we um, Uh, you know, we spend many days on the road uh, on an

annual basis, but, uh, in the same time we have to take care of our own portfolio

and, uh, yeah, word of mouth

is

also, uh, supporting our mission. Yeah. If, uh,

we do a good job

with our founders, 

you 

know, uh, 

they, 

uh, uh, 

introduce us to new founders

and that 

is, uh, also an advantage.

[00:38:36] Markus: I'm just wondering, I don't know if it's different in Germany, but in Austria, um, research institutions, institutes, scientists do not have, do not always have a real understanding that what they do is market worthy. Because of course, most of the time they're in, in fundamental research and they're not like really interested in doing anything else than what they're being paid for and what their passion is and that is research.

So, and, and there's, this is a huge gap to have an understanding what you do. It's valuable in a different place in the world. So how do you get them to understand that

[00:39:28] Christian_1: Yeah. That's, uh, very, um,

Um, 

difficult topics, so to speak. Why so?

Uh,

first and

foremost, uh,

we need

more university or research institute, uh, spin offs, All right. So, uh, I mean, if we have, uh, uh, if we have a

high rank in the patent ranking on a global level,

uh,

it's good for our ego, yeah, but it won't

help our

economy, so to speak.

So what we need to do is we need to have more technology transfers. We need to assure that, um,

all the, uh, patents

which have been filled are 

commercialized. And the question is how to do that. 

Um, 

I mean,

there are many, uh, research

institutes out there and, uh, they, they, already 

understand

that and its need. and the question is if you, um,

have 

this discussions

with researchers, um, the question which arises very quickly, are these also good founders, 

you

know,

Are they just, you know, interested, you know, to check

the box because,

you know, their organization they're working for

is asking for it,

yeah, uh, you know,

or is motivating them, yeah,

uh, to, to,

assure that, you

know, to a certain level, um, they 

uh, commercialize, 

um, um, their research, uh, question mark, yeah.

Because Our 

major 

point of concern is when it comes to, uh, researchers turning into

entrepreneurs, um, do

they

have, you know, the right motivation, the right skills

and, uh, most importantly,

something

what

we call a product market fit mindset.

Yeah. Because

in many cases, um, also here in Germany.

Um,

researchers 

think, okay, um, or engineers,

my technology is so

great. Yeah. It's, it's,

uh, superior compared to what's already

on the market. Yeah.

And, uh,

we don't need to do any, you know, uh, market research,

Uh, or

interaction with customers, you know, as soon as the customer 

will

see

what we

have developed here over the last years, uh, they will, uh, yeah,

come in and they will,

uh, order our technology and, uh,

our product in large numbers.

That's

unfortunately not, uh, the reality, yeah,

And, 

and, um, in

order to overcome

this status quo, um, we, we need

to educate,

you know,

uh, researchers,

future founders,

uh, that it's

different. Um, some of them have already the right mindset, so there's no need to educate them. 

Uh, but if you think

of, you know, uh, the curriculum

of the universities, yeah, it's Entrepreneurship was not always, you know, part of the academic education. 

Luckily, 

things have changed now. You know, many

technical

universities offer, 

um, such, um, courses and, and this 

is the right way to, um, to do it. Yeah. And, 

uh, we 

love to partner with

with universities. Yeah. Um, and we, um, give lectures on this topic

to to assure,

Uh,

that they have a good start

and that they have a fair chance, um, to to get a financing round closed, et cetera.

Um, 

because without

these people, without these founders, we're nothing.

Yeah. I mean,

uh, this is our resource, 

so 

to speak. 

Yeah. And, 

and we need to assure that they will get, you know, the

best education and training, 

which 

is possible.

[00:43:13] Markus: One could say, should the scientist also be, as you mentioned, the good founder, the good entrepreneur? Maybe we're asking too much of some. And we're taking them away from what they're really good at, at great research. So it's, it's like the artist who is a very rarely good businessman or a businesswoman.

So the question is, can we think of something different? Can we come in with something else, maybe a completely different team to leave the scientists to what they do best?

[00:43:54] Christian_1: Um, uh, yes and no. So, um, um, if

we see, okay, that, um, 

there's a solo

founder or that, you know, um, a small, um, founder's team, it's not the right skills from our point of view. Um, we can help them,

We can

help them to extend the management team with our network. Yeah. But it's, um,

not that

easy because, uh, the chemistry needs to be right.

You 

know, they have to, um, 

accept each other. Exactly.

yeah,

And,

um, the researchers

will always say,

okay,

but we have spent, you

know, so many years

on this. We are the ones with, uh, uh, uh, know how here,

Yeah. So why should we accept, uh, 

external 

boss, so

to 

speak? Yeah. On 

the other hand, if you, um, want, um,

to finance

such 

a company, 

I mean, there are also company builders out

there. Yeah. 

Uh, they install a completely external management team, 

but 

at the end of the day, from, from our point of

view, the most successful,

you know, founding teams are those where, you know, the original founder is the one with the know how and is really burning for his idea,

as we say in Germany.

Yeah. At, um, who is, you know, the driving force.

behind it. And not just, you

know, a kind of arbitrary 

team, 

yeah, which is, uh,

which is being paid to do this mission,

yeah. Um,

so it

would lack the right soul or spirit, so to speak, yeah,

if it would

be, you know, a paid management

team. So 

that 

is at

least our

observation here.

And we need

to give, you know, the founders also with a strong academic background a fair chance to grow into

the new role.

And we have good examples in our portfolio that can work out.

[00:45:51] Markus: different topic. You had a different life before, uh, being or becoming an investor and that different life was also connected with a fantastic mission together with DLR, if I'm not mistaken, the mascot mission. It was all about landing on an asteroid. It's So, we're in the same process as we speak again now with, um, multiple asteroid encountering missions, um, the HERA mission, the DART mission, um, in the future, the Apophis mission, or RAMSIS I think it's called.

So, can you speak a little bit about that? that mission, uh, back in the day, the mascot mission, what it was about and why it was important. Um, yeah,

[00:46:45] Christian_1: Yeah,

sure. it away.

Yeah.

Um, I mean, um, as you might know, I start. my career with, the German Air Force, you know, and while

I was still an officer

with the Air Force,

I was following

[00:46:58] Christian_2: uh, 

[00:46:59] Christian_1: Hayabusa mission one

very closely.

and as you might recall, the Hayabusa one team

was facing

many difficulties

with their 

subsystems, so they barely managed to return to Earth with some asteroid samples.

So

it was a huge success.

And, 

yeah, later on, they quickly

decided. to, set up a follow on mission, Hayabusa 2, and

they basically

figured out, okay, what were, you know,

the, The 

difficulties phase during the first mission, and, and they addressed

all of

them. And in the same time, they invited,

you know, 

international, 

um, partners

to make a significant contribution

and, uh, DLR, um, or sport enough.

Um, to make a contribution

And I don't know whether this

is, um, really 

true, but, 

uh, from what

I know, they asked first JPL, 

uh, to contribute Elendor, uh, But uh, the development time was, according to my knowledge,

to short

for the colleagues from JPL,

So they say no 

to 

this opportunity and instead, um, a team formed by colleagues from DLR

and CNES, um, got, uh,

this flight opportunity

[00:48:15] Markus: That's crazy. I mean, 

like, if JPL can pull it off, I mean, like, who else can?

[00:48:20] Christian_1: Yeah, exactly. And, um, this, uh, the 

uh, mission, 

uh, lead of a system lead, um, was, um, done by uh, newly formed Institute, for Institute of

Space Systems

in Bremen. And it was, uh, the mascot mission was among the first 

flight 

missions of this Institute. So, uh, luckily, Our team was,

um, formed by, um, former colleagues from the Rosetta Thiele mission especially, um, they helped us, you know, on the payload side. And uh, it was really um, mix 

of very experienced Uh, colleagues. Yeah. In the same time, uh, there were many newbies uh, on

board. Yeah. And 

I was the system

engineer 

um, for 

this mission. And

uh, it was a tall order.

Uh, But 

uh, for 

me, it was, you know, um, once in a lifetime opportunity 

if you, uh, leave, uh, armed forces and get the chance

to become a system engineer for such a mission,

That was a very, um, big opportunity. And, um, I was not sure whether we will,

uh, succeed, uh, because we had

only 18 months from the beginning. So, yeah, that was the beginning of, phase C until, you know, delivery date, to the launch pad. 

But 

we succeeded. And, um, yeah, um,

once 

everything was launched, you know,

in 2014, um, there were not too many things we could do, uh, 

you 

know, um,

uh,

work

on follow

on missions.

We could, um, 

send 

up, uh,

new software

versions, uh, think of, okay, what to do once we arrived, 

[00:49:53] Christian_2: uh, would arrive at the asteroid, because basically 

[00:49:56] Christian_1: if you fly to an asteroid, you don't have too many information 

about, 

um,

you know, your

target. Uh, there were, you know, we were dealing with high level of uncertainties.

We forgot to, okay, what is the rotational axis? Yeah. Uh, what

is the day night ratio? Yeah.

uh, so it's

basically like 

[00:50:15] Christian_2: you, um,

[00:50:16] Christian_1: plan to go for a camping vacation.

Yeah.

But you don't know whether you will end up in the Arctic

or in the

tropics

or in the desert. Yeah. Um,

in terms

of, okay,

uh, how, 

um, should your thermal system be designed?

Yeah. You have to deal

with, uh, different, you

know, um,

potential thermal regimes.

Yeah. And

you need to assure

that the system which you launch is You know, um, several years before you have this knowledge, uh, works in different or under different conditions. And that was, um, a, a big challenge

for us, but it worked in 2018,

uh, 3rd of October,

uh, the landing occurred and it was a picture scenic

mission.

And would you have

asked me 

before 

whether 

it will work out like

[00:51:04] Markus: I never. So you wouldn't, doubts, but, uh, yeah,

so you wouldn't have placed your bets on that mission.

[00:51:11] Christian_1: Probably,

uh, not.

[00:51:14] Markus: Um, I cannot recall the actual mission, but I remember there was a landing attempt on an asteroid somewhere. And it turned out, because we know so little about asteroids and asteroid surfaces, that it turns out that what seemed to be a rock solid surface was very squishy and, and even like a liquid. And so the lander threatened to sink, to, to go under on that surface.

Can you recall what that mission was?

[00:51:49] Christian_1: I, I

know um, what you're talking about. It's about, um, um, um,

It's

like, um,

if you think of an asteroid,

like, um, cloud of small rocks, 

yeah. 

And, and, uh, basically, um,

[00:52:07] Markus: so it's not, no

solid. it's not solid.

[00:52:09] Christian_1: Yeah. It can happen.

uh, that, uh,

what appears to be an asteroid is basically, um, rock formation, you know, formed of, uh, uh, small rocks.

Yeah. And, uh, the only way to learn. 

Uh, 

how, um, you know, uh, it's built is to fly to it and to learn more about it.

Yeah. And, um, yeah,

what 

I learned from this mission is, um,

If you know one

asteroid, you know, only one 

asteroid, you know, you have, uh, uh, the, the, the spread

And

the diversity is, really high. And, uh, we need to,

uh, conduct more missions, 

probably 

more efficient, maybe with the help of startups, uh, to learn

more about them because, um, As you know,

asteroids are a potential threat, 

um, for 

us, but in the same time,

um,

they might be a potential, 

um, 

resource for future space missions

[00:53:09] Christian_2: um,

[00:53:11] Christian_1: with

[00:53:11] Christian_2: um, Um, rare metals, for instance, and with

[00:53:17] Christian_1: ice deposits, which can

be maybe

utilized for ISRU, 

[00:53:22] Christian_2: um, 

[00:53:22] Christian_1: missions, so, I

think it's paramount to learn more about it. Speaking of which, when, when are we starting? Because we've been talking quite a bit about asteroid mining, um, in, on earth now. So it's a part of science fiction and then you get to hear it now and then, but when are we actually really starting to do it? Are there any, is there research going on? Are there any mining projects on the horizon?

Yes,

[00:53:51] Markus: you placing your bets on asteroid? On, on an asteroid rare earth mining.

[00:53:55] Christian_1: well, um, 

coming, uh, from this space branch, I'm, um, kind of, um, skeptical, yeah?

Uh, I mean, uh, there were already, um, heavily financed

uh, startups

ten years ago, active in that

field, namely, 

uh, Planetary 

Resources and Deep Space Industries. 

Um, They are

basically out of business,

Yeah. And, um,

it's, you have to deal with different challenges.

Of course, you have

to, uh, lower, um, cost for, um, uh, launch, uh, for in space transportation, et cetera. Uh,

but, uh, the most difficult challenge

which needs to be addressed is how do you interact with the asteroid itself?

[00:54:41] Christian_2: So how can

[00:54:42] Christian_1: Could you potentially extract, you know,

um,

the materials, the resources you're interested in?

I mean, if you're talking

about,

um, volatiles, yeah,

you might, uh, find

means to, to heat up, um,

the, um, asteroid with,

um, solar power, for instance, yeah, and, uh, you find a way to, to

collect, um,

um, the, the volatiles with, uh, cold trap, um,

for instance, uh, this is the concept, uh, company in

the

U. S. is working on,

they 

call their their

spacecraft the Space Bee.

I have no insights

as of today about

their funding status or about

the development status, uh, but, um, I think it was

a day or

two days ago that Astroforge announced

another 

financing 

round and Astroforge,

for instance, is working.

you know, on 

another

uh, 

asteroid

mining mission. So

they 

follow also a stepwise approach.

Yeah. First, 

um, of 

all, it's 

always important to to get more information about the um, target asteroid, yeah, to learn more about 

uh, the properties. And 

um, you 

have to get an understanding, okay, Be a potential means to

extract,

um, 

the, the rare metals, but you have to understand

we're 

talking about, um, an environment where you

have basically, depending on the size of asteroid, no

gravity.

So as soon as you 

uh, try 

to, um, yeah, um,

do 

some mechanical action, you

will, um, 

realize

[00:56:21] Christian_2: there's counteraction. Counteract action. exactly.

[00:56:24] Christian_1: And, uh, Isaac Newton will say hello to you. Do you find yourself again in, uh, higher

orbit? So, uh, around this astronaut? So that is the main difficulty. I mean, uh, if we depict, uh, you know, um, space mining, um,

there are some pictures, you know, in the web

where you see, 

um. trucks

or mining machines, which we know, you know, from, um,

coal mines here on 

earth, 

you know, on the, placed on the moon, on the

moon, you have, uh, 

uh, 

relevant gravity.

Uh, that's not the case on the vast majority of asteroids. So,

and, um, my understanding, if you're interested not to

digest the entire asteroid, yeah, uh, to extract a few tons of, the, the, um, materials you're interested in,

you 

need to come up with a.

totally different chemical processes. Um, 

I 

don't know, maybe nanobots or things like that.

Yeah. So, uh, technology, which we

currently have, doesn't

have

uh, don't have in our

disposal. Yeah. So,

so 

if you

ask me, 

[00:57:31] Christian_2: uh, 

[00:57:32] Christian_1: finally, 

okay.

um, are we years away? I would say we are decades

away. Really interesting. But it's a, it's potentially a huge opera, so it's a huge bet because it could be so, I mean like, just imagine. Just investing a hundred billion or a trillion in research and technology, but getting a hundred trillion back. Um, because, uh, I can't remember the celestial body, but a couple of weeks ago, um, I read somewhere that they discovered a celestial body in our solar system that has an 11 mile strong diamond layer.

[00:58:17] Markus: So, I mean, like, uh, you got all the diamonds supply. You will ever need on that celestial body. So all jokes aside, there's a huge opportunity, but getting there is maybe the challenge. It's, it's pretty much similar to what is happening now in the, in the AI sector. Huge investments necessary in order to get somewhere.

[00:58:41] Christian_1: Yeah,

that's, 

um,

uh, that's, um, absolutely true. And you should

not ignore, you know, the market reaction,

uh, 

towards, uh, such an increase

on the supply side.

Yeah. Exactly.

[00:58:53] Christian_2: uh, 

[00:58:53] Christian_1: the colleagues from the Colorado School of Mines,

they

did some research

on, on that. Yeah. 

You 

cannot, um, you know,

uh, count,

you know,

on, on, uh, price

stability as soon as you have tapped into such a vast, uh, you know, uh, resource, yeah.

Absolutely. So that means if you mine a golden moon, you are at the same time destroying gold price

Yeah, you have to

[00:59:21] Christian_2: have, and to, uh, 

[00:59:22] Christian_1: feed the market very carefully,

[00:59:26] Markus: over 

millennia. Speaking like, it's like, you know, during the oil crisis in the seventies, you know, you have to control

[00:59:34] Christian_1: how 

much

oil is, entering the market. And, you have then, the power of the price control mechanism, so to speak.

[00:59:47] Markus: now, branching out a little bit into the future also, because you said you need to place your strategies very carefully. Where do you see the space industry headed? What's, um What's the omega point that we're headed toward? I keep saying on the show, almost on every single episode, that, um, perhaps we're starting to become an interplanetary species.

We're starting to leave planet Earth, perhaps because we're discovering the technological necessities and we're getting, we're getting ever more, um, used to leaving Earth. And because we can do it as Elon Musk. Pretty much demonstrated with the Falcon rockets and perhaps in the future with Starship. But what is, what's your take?

Um, because you're, you're pretty much to me, you're a crystal ball, so to say, because you're, you're very knowledgeable and very well informed, um, when it comes to anything that goes together with the space industry.

[01:00:53] Christian_1: Yeah, I

[01:00:54] Markus: Where are we headed?

[01:00:55] Christian_1: that's the

driving 

question is, 

[01:00:58] Christian_2: um, um, 

[01:01:00] Christian_1: who's 

sitting in the driver's seat, right? 

[01:01:03] Christian_2: Um, 

[01:01:04] Christian_1: I 

mean, if I think back of 

the situation, in the late nineties, you know, we

were stuck

in low Earth orbit, 

[01:01:12] Christian_2: um, 

[01:01:13] Christian_1: the

ISS,

uh, was delayed, 

um, 

for different reasons, yeah.

And

only with the advent of new space and new space companies, we have seen, um, relevant progress, yeah.

Um,

so that

gave me hope.

Yeah. uh, honestly, uh, when I was, uh, you know, uh, uh, 20 years

old, some and, um, I think ultimately, we're heading towards that direction. I mean, that is, um, also, uh, Elon Musk's, uh, goal, yeah. Lifetime goal, so to speak. Um,

but, um, we should not

count on, uh, space agencies in my understanding.

Yeah. And, um,

if, if

you find a way.

Um, 

to show that

you can

make 

money, 

um, while you're heading towards Mars, 

uh, you're in the best position

uh, to uh, fulfill this vision or to turn 

this 

vision into reality, yeah? And

um, currently, 

or as of today, I'm not sure. You know,

all the customers,

um,

who are paying, you know,

for all the services,

name them,

communication, 

Earth observation, 

P& 

T solutions, they are here on 

Earth.

So 

the question is, uh, when will we see, you know, a tipping point that we will make more business with the space industry? in space rather than here on 

Earth. And we haven't

reached this tipping point yet.

Um, 

what, might be

a contributor is,

you know,

is what we call the great power competition 

between the US and China.

So they are in a kind

of second space race.

Um, 

the moon or Cislunar is considered to be the ultimate high ground.

That means, um, if you have, um,

the

possibility. 

For 

instance, to

extract,

um, lunar

ice deposits and

to produce fuel, which allow you then

to refuel your satellites in

cislunar and geostationary orbit,

which make you maybe,

um, independent from supplies from

Earth because, you you all the orbits in between are crowded, you're in a superior position.

And, um,

I

I think, um,

if you want

to build it in a very economic manner, a lunar station, for instance, which does this job,

um,

you have to rely on commercial partners. And that is something what, um, um, Colleagues from the

US are aiming for, in my understanding. Uh, they don't want to do and build

everything by themselves.

Uh, they want industry

to, uh, come up with these capabilities, yeah. And of course, they appear as an anchor customer, but, um, everything what,

uh, will

be created next to it, kind of adjacent, um, industry, yeah, um, 

will 

contribute to this very first

step

beyond, our, um,

lower orbit or,

uh, geostationary orbit

con.

Yeah. And

from them, we need to see, I mean, um, how, um, far or how, how long it'll take us, um,

humanity to make the next step to, to, to mass. Yeah.

Um,

[01:04:36] Markus: Would you want to go, if someone asked you?

[01:04:40] Christian_1: uh, of course. I'm ready

to

go. Um, if somebody

uh, pays uh, the ticket or invites me, 

uh, I would definitely go. Yeah,

[01:04:53] Markus: I was pretty quick, um, because, your reply. Because I could imagine that there is initially excitement, but at some point When you're realizing that you're confined to a very small area on Mars and that Mars in fact wants to kill you. Question is, how exciting can it still be?

[01:05:22] Christian_1: absolutely. And, um,

I, think, um, if we, um,

discuss, you know, the future of humanity

on another

planet. Um,

I, I think we have touched so far only the tip

of the iceberg.

Yeah. It's not just about surviving.

Uh, it's

about, you know,

um,

staying 

there and reproducing, yeah, and, and, um, uh, think about

it, what we'll,

we'll make uh, with uh, embryo, with, with,

a baby, if it, uh, grow up in a

different 

gravitational

environment.

So, um,

I

think, uh, we haven't, uh, done enough research 

on that yet, yeah, 

uh, to discuss all the consequences,

yeah, uh, would we be required to go

back

to fly

back to Earth to reproduce?

um, because if we

reproduce on an Now the planet, on

mo, on, on, on, on

mass, uh, here, I 

mean, the, the, uh, baby, I don't know whether it

would be a survival, uh, or it would survive, 

you know, from the bones, et cetera on earth.

[01:06:30] Markus: That's very, very tricky. We had, um, two representatives of Spaceborne here on the show, um, a Dutch company, um, doing research in exactly that field. And from what I heard so far and what we discussed, it's Extremely tricky on multiple levels. First of all, you cannot really test this kind of, or you can't do research because you're doing research with human sperm and human eggs turning into something weird, maybe, usually something weird.

So it's ethically not viable. And, um, from animal testing, what they say is the odds that some ill formed consequence comes out of this is still very, very high. So conception is, is, A huge issue. Birth may be an issue. So it seems like, it seems like we're not meant to procreate somewhere else. Of course, this is a non scientific approach towards, towards this problem.

Cause maybe no one means us to do anything at all in the first place. But it seems very tricky.

[01:07:59] Christian_1: Yeah. But in, in the same time, um, I mean, um,

[01:08:04] Christian_2: uh, we accept, you know, um, our genetic code as it is, um, you know, uh, what you're describing is true. Yeah. but, uh, there are also some voices out there, yeah,

[01:08:18] Christian_1: who 

say, okay, um,

Before

we start, you know, to work on, spacesuits, yeah, we should maybe start to think of working on our, uh, genome, yeah, and, and that's a big ethic question, yeah, um, maybe, um, we need to, uh, adapt in a different way.

to this new environment. Yeah, 

But that is then a totally different discussion. Yeah. And, um, yeah,

it's,

it's, um, difficult to predict, um, At which point in time we will have

such a discussion.

[01:08:53] Markus: It's really interesting because currently, um, someone pointed me a couple of weeks ago, someone pointed me to Andy Weir, the author, uh, of The Martian. And so I read, um, Project Hail Mary, which was fantastic. And currently I'm reading Artemis and Artemis is all about, I don't know. Have you read any?

[01:09:16] Christian_2: No, no, no.

[01:09:17] Markus: I can highly recommend.

It's hard science fiction, so it's science fiction you can actually draw science from, and really, you as an engineer, it could be really interesting. But, while I'm mentioning that, on the Artemis, Um, in the Artemis story, there is this woman who was born on, on the moon, so she never developed a skeleton that would be viable on Earth.

So she would never ever go back to Earth because she wouldn't be able to live a normal life on Earth. So this is maybe already the first step towards becoming something else, becoming a different, we would be the same species technically, but we would be we would have found a different niche to evolve into, maybe.

[01:10:11] Christian_1: Yeah, it would be a new branch. And um, um, 

first

time I

uh, 

encountering this, this, um, topic was 

um, in 

the early 2000s. I

think, um, if you read, um, First Landing written by Robert Subrin, Zebrin? 

um, It

was about,

um, first, uh, human mission to Mars, and, uh, 

a female 

astronaut, pregnant, and, uh, well, um, basically they decided to stay on Mars, Yeah. 

Um, because abortion was not an option for her. Yeah. And, uh, she and

the 

astronaut

father, uh,

yeah, stay together on Mars and, form basically the nucleus

of a new civilization.

Highly recommendable book

[01:11:01] Markus: and then you got your Adam and Eve story starting all over again.

[01:11:08] Christian_1: in 

essence. Yeah. Idol,

[01:11:11] Markus: um, you mentioned you would go to Mars, um, without giving it too much of a thought, because you feel like that would be your thing. Um, going to Mars takes about a couple of months, I think, with current space. Space, um, craft technology. So, um, I assume that could be getting slightly boring at some point to just get there.

So my question to you, what's the one piece of music you would want to see on a playlist to accompany you on that journey? journey and to gear you up. The reason I'm asking is because I'm asking that question every guest on the show because we have a Spotify playlist. It's the playlist for the aspiring space traveler and each guest gets to contribute one of their favorite tunes to that playlist.

What's yours?

[01:12:11] Christian_1: Um, Billy Idol 

can stop the fire.

[01:12:16] Markus: Fantastic. Um, and one last question. This place, um, here is the Space Cafe Podcast and it's a coffee place, so to say, and now and then you go into coffee places to energize yourself by having an espresso. Now I'm challenging you to share an espresso for the mind with me, with the audiences. What could be an energizing espresso for the mind?

You would like to share on whatever kind of topic you want to pick.

[01:12:55] Christian_1: I think, uh,

given

what we discussed

so far, uh, we should, um,

ask

all of us, okay, Um, What 

our desired

future in space,

Yeah. And who should be in charge of, uh, you know,

um, shaping this future in space?

Shall we leave it to

uh, politicians, 

to 

space

agencies, to billionaires,

um, 

to, to, um, investors, yeah? to founders? yeah? Should we ask the general public

Yeah. To vote on, on, a topic? 

Yeah. Uh, Should it be a random

thing? Yeah. 'cause we don't care whether we make progress or not. 

Yeah. And, and, uh, this is something what

is not clear to me yet.

Yeah. And, um, that

would be my espresso for you 

and 

for the audience.

[01:13:49] Markus: Fantastic. Christian, thank you so much. This was really inspiring.

[01:13:54] Christian_1: Thank 

you for having me and, uh, yeah, have a nice evening.

[01:13:58] Markus: Thank you.

 And that's a wrap, my friends, on today's Cosmic Journey with Christian Tziag. What a ride it's been, um, at least for me. It's mind blowing to hear the investor's perspective of things from those guys who are a part of Invested, literally invested in something and who should know what's going on in the world so as to not lose whatever they're investing.

If you liked the show and if you like what we're doing here on this little planet called Space Cafe Podcast, Why don't you share and subscribe, you're already subscribed, but why don't you share our little planet with someone you feel like could be interested in what we're doing here, and for your personal needs.

Why don't you consider adding Billy Idol's We Can't Stop the Fire to your personal playlist, like the one we have on Spotify, the Aspiring Astronauts playlist for your personal future journey to the stars or the next space race. Make the choice. You call the shots. Until next time, my friends, keep looking up, stay curious, and remember, in the vast expanse of the universe.

Of space, the only limit is our imagination. This is Markus signing off for today from the Space Cafe Podcast at Astra, my friends. Thanks for sticking around. Bye bye.