Mark Clampin: NASA Astrophysics Director Discusses the Agency's Future, Habitable Worlds, Starships, and Life Beyond

In Episode 106 of the Space Cafe Podcast, host Markus engages with Dr. Mark Clampin, astrophysics director at NASA. They discuss the significant advancements and future plans in space exploration, capturing the raw ambiance of a busy evening in Austin, Texas, during the South by Southwest festival (SXSW)...

 Guest Background: Dr. Mark Clampin has an extensive career in space science, particularly noted for his work with the James Webb Space Telescope. His insights shed light on the complexity and achievements of current space missions and what the future holds for NASA.

 Key Topics Covered:

• James Webb Space Telescope's Achievements: Insight into the operational success and the cutting-edge images it has produced.
• Future NASA Projects: Discussion on upcoming missions influenced by the decadal survey, focusing on the Roman Space Telescope and its objectives.
• Technological Advancements in Space: Overview of new technologies, including the active coronagraph, enhancing the exploration capabilities of future space telescopes.

 Memorable Quotes:

• "Webb is doing really well, better than our wildest dreams... it's just a dream come true to see the quality of the science it's been doing." — Dr. Mark Clampin
• "The Roman Space Telescope will fundamentally change our understanding of dark matter and dark energy." — Dr. Mark Clampin

Key References and Must-Click Links:

• NASA: Learn more about current projects and future missions here.
• James Webb Space Telescope: Explore detailed information and view stunning images from the telescope here.
• Habitable Worlds Observatory
• Roman Space Telescope 

Featured Media and Cultural References:

• Music Choice by Dr. Mark Clampin: Bach's Violin Concerto No. 1, specifically the second movement performed by Hilary Hahn. This piece resonates with the calming yet profound nature of space travel.

Follow Our Journey:

• Host: Markus Mooslechner
• Guest: Dr. Mark Clampin

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Markus.: Hello everyone, this is Space Cafe Podcast and I'm Markus. What do you do when you have an appointment with the astrophysics director of NASA in a town that's not only loud but also fully booked with no silent spots available on the fly? to make a recording.

[00:00:35] Taking him to your hotel room could mitigate the noise, but that's not really an option. You guessed it, it's the middle of South by Southwest season, and Austin, Texas, is in full swing, to say the least, with 60, 000 people, hundreds of events per day, and every room booked literally every day. this place is bustling, And if you want to catch the last available utility room or cleaning closet for a decent, silent location for your recording, your wallet must be buzzling as well.

[00:01:12] So, I figured, you know what? I will put my microphones to the most radical test possible. I invited Dr. Mark Clampin to join me for a sundowner chat on a hotel terrace. On the fifth floor. Right in the middle of it all. The background noise was a nightmare for any podcaster. But maybe not. These days, artificial intelligence can make almost any loud noise magically go away, just like that.

[00:01:40] But then I figured, hey, let's do it. Not this time. I want you guys to also immerse yourselves in that moment that I enjoyed so much. , no magic, just pure down to earth me, Mark, and a fantastic Texas sundown.

[00:01:57] With Mark deciding to sit right against it, having to slightly squint his eyes. the right mood to talk about NASA's next big plans. Enjoy. 

[00:02:08]

[00:02:08] Markus: thanks for taking the time.

[00:02:11] Mark.: sure, it's a pleasure.

[00:02:12] Markus: you just got back from, uh, an event? Uh, how was it? How was your session, your panel?

[00:02:17] Mark.: So my panel was discussing the James Webb Space Telescope and then trying to segue into what we're doing next in NASA astrophysics. So I talked about the Roman Space Telescope and then further on concepts that we have on the drawing boards that we're, you know, trying to Habitable Worlds Observatory.

[00:02:39] Markus: So before we move into the future, how is James Webb doing?

[00:02:42] Mark.: so Webb is doing really well, you know, better than our wildest dreams. Um, I actually said in the podcast, you know, that, you know, for many of us who worked on the project for so long, you know, it's just, you know, a dream come true to see the quality of the science that it's been doing, you know,

[00:03:01] Markus: To get it up and running in the first place was a miracle? And then to have like those quality images?

[00:03:08] Mark.: Yes, I mean, you work on these programs for a very long time, and I worked on Webb for 14 years as the observatory project scientist, and then after that I was managing the whole Webb science team for another seven or eight years. So I've always kind of been heavily involved with Webb and what it was doing.

[00:03:27] And you know, when you work on things at that level, you kind of know all the issues, and those are the things you fret about, and they are the things you should fret

[00:03:35] Markus: Sure.

[00:03:36] Mark.: But when it launches, you know, you're sitting there ticking them off as you go through all the elements of the launch phase, from the launch, and then the first deployment, and the second, and the third.

[00:03:49] So that first six months was pretty,

[00:03:52] Markus: Intense. 

[00:03:53] Mark.: you know, just going through, ticking the list one by one. But At the end of it, we get this amazing image, and we look at it and go, wow, this is much deeper than we'd all calculated, and we realize the telescope's more sensitive, that the image quality's better than we had

[00:04:12] planned. The pointing is better and everything deployed perfectly. I mean, what more could you ask

[00:04:18] Markus: What's your favorite image? I

[00:04:22] Mark.: think my favorite image is still that very first slide image that the president unveiled. Just because for me it's so unusual to do. You know, what was ostensibly a first light image to show the press and one of the things I said at the event we were just speaking at, you know, I just saw a paper come out last week still discussing that first image and the data that was contained in it.

[00:04:47] Markus: And that's just one

[00:04:48] Mark.: one image, yes.

[00:04:50] Markus: So how many images do you get, like, on a weekly basis, or? 

[00:04:55] Dump: Yeah.

[00:05:02] Mark.: on the kind of science that's being done. The images typically don't take as long as the spectroscopic observations, which are much longer. So in any given week, it's a mix. So it's hard to say we get so many images in a certain period of

[00:05:18] time. 

[00:05:20] Markus: Um, how about those micrometeorite bombardments? Are they still happening? I guess they are, they are factored into the whole mission process. They're not a surprise, I guess.

[00:05:30] Mark.: So the micrometeoroids are not a surprise. And in fact, I can tell you, I started on Webb in 2003 as the Observatory Project Scientist, and the micrometeoroids have factored into the optical performance from the very first day. We have a model that the Marshall Space Flight Center maintains of micrometeoroid flux at L2, and what we're seeing pretty much matches that model.

[00:05:58] We've seen one micrometeoroid that's a little It was a lot more, um, what would I say, had a bigger impact on the mirror. And we think that's just because it hit a particularly critical area. We have this structure on the back of the mirror we call the strung back, which is a series of ribs. They're attached to an actuator in the middle that adjusts the mirror focus.

[00:06:24] We think it hit one of those, so it appeared to do more damage than it actually did just We think it hid that structure. We have six degrees of freedom on each mirror, so we can make a lot of adjustments to remove the aberration it caused.

[00:06:42] Markus: Good. So now, Let's talk about the future. What up next? What does NASA have up its sleeve when it comes to new projects? I just had, I just had, um, the ELT project manager on the show. So we spoke quite extensively about ELT. Um, now we got James Webb. So what, how can we go beyond all this?

[00:07:08] Mark.: So, uh, what we do next in NASA is determined by the decadal survey. So, we get, uh, marching orders once a decade from the National Academies, who conduct what's called a decadal survey, and they basically collect a large group of astronomers and essentially say, what are the priorities for this decade?

[00:07:30] What's the most important problems? That we can work on. And in 2010, the most important problem was understanding the nature of dark energy and dark matter. So, our current, um, mission, which comes from the 2010 decadal, is the Roman Space Telescope, which is named after Nancy Grace Roman, who was, you know, one of the first science administrators at NASA.

[00:07:55] And that program will consist of a 2. 4 meter telescope, but it's our very first flagship that does surveys. So if you think back to some of the other missions that we've launched, like Hubble, and Chandra, and Spitzer, they're all, and Webb indeed, they're all what we call, or I call, point and shoot. You know, they look at a place on the sky and take a very deep image or spectrum.

[00:08:20] Roman instead is, um, a survey mission. So it has a field of view a hundred times bigger than Hubble's, and it will survey a big part of the sky, uh, taking observations of galaxies and supernovae to get a much better understanding of the nature of dark energy, which is this force that we think is making the universe accelerate as it expands.

[00:08:45] It will also allow us to really understand the nature of dark matter, which is this unseen element in galaxies that, uh, we know is, um, you know, vital constituent, you know, from measurements that we've made of the rotation rate of galaxies and which we also understand from gravitational lenses. Roman's also going to do other things.

[00:09:10] It's a survey mission, so it will provide us with a really amazing view of the infrared sky. And large surveys produce lots of very unique science that can only be done when you cover a large part of the sky. One other thing it would do, for instance, is uh, uh, survey of the galactic bulge and we will be able to look for gravitationally lensed exoplanets and that will allow us to really fill in our understanding of what exoplanet systems look like.

[00:09:44] We know what the inner parts look like but we don't have a good idea of the statistics of the outer regions and we need to understand that information as we start to think about the 2020 decadal survey where We've been told to build an observatory that we're going to be calling, for the time being, the Habitable Worlds Observatory, and that will survey nearby stars.

[00:10:07] Looking for habitable planets and then characterizing them to look for signs of life. But unlike previous missions where we've really focused on transits, on mini eclipses, uh, Roman and then, um, the habitable worlds will actually be taking images. So on Roman we're flying a technology demonstration of a coronagraph.

[00:10:32] Dump: huh.

[00:10:37] Mark.: star so you can see that faint material around it. But to do that you have to really flatten out the wavefront error from the telescope. And you know the telescope wavefront error A nanometer and less levels is always changing because of the thermal variations in the mirror.

[00:10:57] So this is the first time we've flown what we call an active coronagraph. It's measuring the wavefront all the time and then correcting it with two deformable mirrors that bend their shape to adjust those perturbations in the wavefront error. So that will be a technology demonstration and will allow us to image gas giant planets like Jupiter.

[00:11:20] And then with the habitable worlds, we'll go a hundred to a thousand times better and try to image small Earth like planets that could potentially be habitable. And for that we need to go to contrast levels of 10 billion. So that's a really challenging requirement. And it also requires the telescope to be stable at the level of tens of picometers.

[00:11:44] So a hundred to a thousand times more stable than Webb.

[00:11:50] Markus: That's, that's mind blowing.

[00:11:51] Mark.: the whole telescope has to be actively controlled, not just the chronograph.

[00:11:57] Markus: Do you have a favorite question, uh, that should be answered? Because you just mentioned dark matter and actual planets. Do you have a favorite that should be answered first and then the rest?

[00:12:12] Mark.: So I think for me it's really NASA's search for life and, you know, is there life out there in the universe? So for me it's really pursuing the question of, you know, do these planets show evidence of

[00:12:24] life? 

[00:12:27] Markus: So what do you think, what's your, what's your best guess? I just had Lisa Kaltenegger, um, on the show from the Carl Sagan Institute.

[00:12:33] Mark.: Yes, I know Lisa.

[00:12:34] Markus: And, um, we spoke, of course, we talked about just that. And Lisa said that from a technical perspective, we will know if we're alone or not alone within the next 10 years, because we have the technical capabilities.

[00:12:52] So what's, what's, um, what's your guess? Are we alone?

[00:12:57] Mark.: Uh, I think we're not, and I would agree with Lisa. I'm not sure how 10 years, but I think Habitable Worlds will be the mission that really answers that question. I think it will take a bit longer than 10 years to get it built and flown. But yes, we will answer that question.

[00:13:18] Markus: actually, we're living in a very decisive moment in time. Where for the first time, we may know, we may find out.

[00:13:29] Mark.: I, I look at it this way, you know, when I, when I was a kid, I watched Star Trek, you know, I'm embarrassed to say I'm old enough that I watched the first series when it first came out. And you know, one of the things I always wondered is, you know, are there really that many planets? And, you know, do they really look, are they going to look like that when we find them?

[00:13:49] Well, now we've found them, you know, we've found something like 5, 000 planets around other stars that we've confirmed as planets. And there's another, you know, backlog of 10, 000 candidates we haven't confirmed yet. We know many of these are in systems. So in just the last 20 years, we've come so far towards answering that question.

[00:14:11] So we're going to make progress and we're going to get to the point. Where we can really answer these questions.

[00:14:18] Markus: it's also fascinating to remind ourselves that our knowledge of the universe is not very old. It's not that long that we found out that our galaxy is not the only one, or our solar system is not the only one. So we should remind ourselves that we are in the middle of finding out.

[00:14:38] Mark.: Yes, I mean, we've, I, I, I've just been astonished, you know, in the age of Hubble, Chandra. Spitzer and now Webb, you know, we've made so many discoveries that have completely overturned, you know, our previous understanding of the universe, of astrophysics, of our place in it, how planets form, how stars form, you know, we've just rewritten the textbooks a moment in time where we Because now everything is about artificial intelligence. Maybe this is also a moment in time where we need artificial intelligence to dig through that data because we're producing so much data that it's impossible to dig through it without technological support.

[00:15:25] Absolutely. And, um, you know, I will say when I was, when I was the, uh, science manager at Goddard, um, I managed not just astrophysics, but, uh, several other science divisions, including the earth science division. And I was always very impressed that they seem to be way ahead of the crowd on using, um, these artificial intelligence machine learning techniques to infuse different data sets.

[00:15:50] And then. You know, make discoveries using machine learning. And, you know, we were able to essentially grab time on their systems. You know, they had this massive, uh, GPU stack. And, uh, a good example is we, we ran the test two year, um, database and found, you know, another 150 planets just using machine learning.

[00:16:16] And some of them were really interesting because they were things that we weren't expecting to find, like, uh. Dust clouds created by colliding asteroids. So, as we go into the era of Roman, where we're going to be generating petabytes of data. Yes, you know, artificial intelligence and machine learning are just a fundamental part of how we will have to sort through the data.

[00:16:40] Markus: Fantastic. I'm always curious. to find out what we can learn from projects like James Webb. Like, not we as, or not the space industry, but other industries. So, because there's lots of project management in there. So, what is it that society, corporate, the corporate world can learn from such projects?

[00:17:06] Mark.: So, you know, Web is an interesting project because at the time we were building it, there was obviously a lot of concern that we'd run over. So, But we always ran web with a very strong project management focus and really focused on the leadership aspects that were the getters to the finish line. And for me, you know, part of that was having a bachelors team, uh, continually questioning what we were doing.

[00:17:36] And what I mean by that is risk analysis. So I got asked a short while ago about, um, how do we track all the risks and concerns? And we had a very open and inclusive approach, which was that anybody on the project, anybody could raise a risk, write it into the database and then we would have to bring in the system engineering team and disposition that risk.

[00:18:02] And, you know, a lot of them they would say we've looked at this and it's not valid. But they had to clearly explain why, and then others, they would say, Oh, yes, this is actually something we hadn't thought of. We better go figure out what to do. 

[00:18:19] Markus: Super interesting. So, it's everyone has a voice.

[00:18:22] Mark.: everybody had a voice on that program. And I, you know, I told the audience that You know, there are a couple of risks in a database I remember writing about, making sure that we could clean the mirrors.

[00:18:36] So having clean mirrors on JW was essential to having very low sky backgrounds that weren't dominated by scattered light. 'cause the telescope's not in the tube, it's just looking at the sky. And so if you have more than you know, percent or so on the mirrors of dust coverage, you will start to see stray light from the universe.

[00:18:58] Which is kind of a strange concept. But so we realized as the program was, you know, progressing, that we were gonna have to clean the mirrors. And you know, the risk as I put in, came true. And we looked at two different approaches and. Adopted one of them once we tested it. So that's an example, but there were hundreds of others.

[00:19:19] Markus: The world is, is teaming with problems these days as we know, do you think that project managers from James Webb or similar projects could solve our very mundane problems differently because we are in desperate need to solve those problems?

[00:19:40] I'm not only talking about climate change, but of course it's, it's a valid problem that needs to be solved

[00:19:45] Mark.: I, I think one of the things, you know, when you talk about solving problems outside of You know, astrophysics missions, you know, there also needs to be a commitment to do it right. So if you look at our James Webb team, we had a very strong commitment to build that telescope and make sure it worked on the day.

[00:20:04] So a lot of it just comes down to having committed people who are really in it for the long haul, if need be. To solve this problem.

[00:20:13] Markus: and a very clear goal.

[00:20:14] Mark.: And a clear goal. And that's kind of where we've been on Roman. So with Roman, we have a different challenge, which is that, you know, we're trying to accomplish that mission to do a very different kind of science, but we're also very focused this time on finishing on cost and schedule as well.

[00:20:33] And that's a goal that we've been set by, uh, Uh, Congressional Stakeholders. So, it's different goals, but we're focused on them in just the same way.

[00:20:44] Markus: How do you, how do you deal with, um, the frustration of having to invent most of the parts and constituents of such projects? Because I could imagine that most of the things that are needed now for the next telescope are not off the shelf at the moment.

[00:21:01] Mark.: Right, but that's, that's part of the excitement of working on these programs. You all, every astrophysics mission we do, whether it's a small one or a large one, is in some way a one off, where you really have to do something that's never been done before. And the bigger the program, the more things that have never been done before, but you still have the excitement of trying to figure out how to solve those 

[00:21:25] Markus: But what if you don't? So, for example, um, theory requires a certain coating for a mirror. And you can't come up with it. You cannot solve that problem. Would that be the end of the whole project? Does, do, do things 

[00:21:40] Mark.: we'll work on a mitigation, or, this is part of our risk process, but the time we get to the point where we realize it doesn't work, Most times, somebody's already said, this is a risk that we might not get there, and we've already said, okay, so if we don't get there, what is the mitigation?

[00:21:58] How do we, how do we go a different route if we have to?

[00:22:02] Markus: Hmm.

[00:22:03] Mark.: So we kind of look at it that way and I can see as I start thinking about habitable worlds, you know, I can see many of these potential forks in the road, if you like, where we can't do it one way, we'll have to go another

[00:22:16] way 

[00:22:17] Markus: Yeah. 

[00:22:18] Mark.: coatings are one

[00:22:19] of them. 

[00:22:19] Markus: absolutely. Completely different question. Is SLS a dead end?

[00:22:27] Mark.: Uh, I, I think, um, Right now that it's moving forward and NASA is fully intending to use SLS for its, um, Artemis program. We, as I, as I think about habitable worlds, are looking at ways of optimizing our program. And one of the things that we're looking at is large, Launchers that provide us with that necessary volume and mass, um, margin that we don't have with the current round of launchers.

[00:23:01] So we have SLS and there are other companies, SpaceX with Starship making similar large, um, volume and, but

[00:23:11] Markus: is reusable, so SLS can never be competitive,

[00:23:17] Mark.: I, right now I, I think it's too early to say,

[00:23:20] Markus: say. 

[00:23:21] Mark.: Yeah. 

[00:23:22] Markus: Okay. But the Europeans have the same problem with Ariane 6. Yeah. Yeah. Um, in one of the panels here at South by Southwest, we heard, we, the crisis in science, in science, about the science education, about the rapid death of science magazines, popular science magazines, everything transitioning into digital, and a lack of appreciation in society for science.

[00:24:02] It's a waning appreciation. It's the same in Europe. Austria, my, my native countries, we used to have like Nobel laureates like on a, on a yearly basis a hundred years ago. This has completely turned into the opposite. Like Austria is at the moment at the very end of the European countries when it comes to a society that appreciates The necessity of science and the benefits of science.

[00:24:33] Here in the United States, I hear it's about 53 percent of people understanding that science is important do you think that scientists are doing something wrong, that have been doing something wrong? And how could we, can we mitigate that problem? Mm

[00:24:59] Mark.: I'm not sure that scientists are doing anything wrong, but I do recognize the need to be, that scientists need to be really, um, proactive in communicating what they're doing. And, um, you know, we in astrophysics and in the science mission director at NASA headquarters, you know, a big part of our programs is You know, talking about the science that we do, we're all expected to go and give talks, you know, explain not just what we're finding but why we do it, what the value is to society, what the value is to, um, you know, American industry.

[00:25:38] So we, we continue to be very proactive in talking about what we're doing. Um, I, I'm not sure, you know, what the numbers in the U. S. look like, but we continue to see a lot of interest in, Certainly in astrophysics, in the science that we do, and the engagement, we just fill the room with 400 people without a, you know, without too much of a problem.

[00:26:02] So, whenever we give talks about the science that NASA does, we bring in a lot of, um, people that, who want to hear about it. And I continue to see a lot of, um, scientists and engineers who, and program managers, who want Who, um, not only come into NASA telling us that one of the things that inspired them was what we did on Hubble or Chandra or Webb, mainly, you know, obviously the older missions right now, but I expect Webb will do the same.

[00:26:35] But, you know, I also meet a lot of people in the industry who say that the kind of things we do in NASA are what inspired them to go into a STEM, um, career. So I think we're still working very hard to do that, and I think, you know, our stakeholders continue to recognize that. Because they continue to fund us.

[00:26:55] Markus: it seems like we're undergoing a major transformation as humanity in many, many directions wherever that transformation is headed. a transformation when it comes to space exploration. What's your take on where all this is headed? Are we becoming an interplanetary species? Or is that too early?

[00:27:23] Mark.: I think it's too early, certainly for me it's too early to say. But I'm, you know, really encouraged by the growth in commercial space. Certainly in the U. S. we see a lot of new companies springing up. Um, a lot of our payloads are launched by commercial space now. Uh, by companies who weren't launching them 10 years ago.

[00:27:47] And I think it's really exciting to watch that develop and see new opportunities. And it's certainly changed how we look at putting together our missions now. Um, you know, 10, 15 years ago, there may have been, you know, four or five companies that could build a spacecraft bus. Now there are a lot more and many of them are not even interested in working with us because they have.

[00:28:12] Focused on, say, communications or something else, but it's really encouraging just to see the growth in commercial space in America, because it, it's like a rising tide. It takes us all with it, right? So.

[00:28:26] Markus: As I said,

[00:28:27] Mark.: And in fact, you know, as I said, you know, for Habitable Worlds Observatory,

[00:28:31] Dump: new, large

[00:28:32] Mark.: we're looking at using large, uh, rocket fairings on these new large generation launches.

[00:28:39] We're also looking at all the work that's, and the companies that are working on things like cislunar logistics and going to the moon and saying, well, we can use that to go and do robotic servicing at L2. So we're going to design this telescope to be serviced at L2, and, you know, that will require not just, you know, the hardware capability, but, you know, autonomous servicing, so that's AI, ML, so it also brings in a lot of new technologies as well.

[00:29:09] I'm 

[00:29:10] Dump: just

[00:29:11] Markus: I've always wondered, because you very briefly mentioned, um, or the more science fictiony part of, of things, why haven't, don't we have. A huge spaceship already, like the Star Trek type spaceships that are traveling around. I mean like I'm not talking about warp drives. I'm just talking about a huge spaceship that travels around, not just the space station out there.

[00:29:42] Why don't we have something like this? Because that would make space exploration a lot easier, I guess. Where's the problem with that?

[00:29:49] Mark.: I think up until recently, it's just been the cost of doing it, because really it was just governments who are launching and flying space hardware. And of course, that's expensive, and it has to compete with other national priorities. Now you're seeing is As I just said, proliferation of commercial space companies who are finding new and cheaper ways to launch things.

[00:30:12] So I, I fully expect that as time goes by, we'll get there, but it's still going to take a long time because, you

[00:30:20] Markus: the payload capacity to bring

[00:30:22] Mark.: the inescapable physics of what it takes to get mass to orbit. And you know, there are more companies who can do that, but getting large amounts of mass to orbit is still the. the really major issue you have to contend with.

[00:30:36] Markus: Yeah. But what are the most, um, interesting plans in the drawers in regard to that? So if the physics problem to get things, uh, into orbit is, is solved, what are the most interesting projects out there? 

[00:30:52] Dump: On

[00:31:00] Mark.: you know, so I'll talk about NASA. You know, NASA's planning to go back to the moon, and we're not just going back for another visit, we're going back to stay, and then eventually to go on to Mars, and I, I think right now that's a, you know, really nice goal to be focusing on as you talk about returning to space as You know, as a human race in a big way. 

[00:31:25] Markus: go into space if the call came? 

[00:31:27] Mark.: I would go like a shot. Yes.

[00:31:29] You would go?

[00:31:30] Absolutely. Would my family be happy about that? ? That's, that's a different 

[00:31:35] Markus: do they know that you

[00:31:36] would 

[00:31:36] Dump: go, oh, yeah. Okay, good.

[00:31:39] Markus: No, I'm just asking. of course, you know a lot better than me that it will be a very boring journey, wherever you go, because it's a long journey.

[00:31:47] Mark.: yes.

[00:31:48] Markus: Which one tune wouldn't you want to miss on that journey? Which one piece of music? 

[00:31:54] Mark.: You know, if I had to pick just one and I would, uh, probably pick, uh, the Bach Violin Concerto No. 1. The second movement, preferably the Hilary Hahn version.

[00:32:11] Markus: Wonderful. Wonderful. And, um, the last question, this show is called the Space Cafe Podcast. It's a coffee place. Um, coffee is good if you want to energize yourself, if you're tired. Now, why don't you share an espresso for the mind with me to energize? as an energizer for audiences, what could be an espresso for the mind, and you can pick whatever kind of topic you want to pick.

[00:32:41] Mark.: That's an interesting question. Um, guess I would encourage people to think about what science does in their lives. So I, I'll give you an example. I used to, uh, be the chief editor of a journal for one of the big optics, um, societies. And we sat down one day and just said, what has optics done in our life?

[00:33:05] And when you sit down and start to think about even just one scientific discipline and what has it done for our lives? How is it? Enrich them. You know, A, the list gets very long very quickly, and B, you realize just where you'd be without science and technology. So, that would be my suggestion. Think about a science discipline and what it's done to enrich your life.

[00:33:30] Markus: And try to find out the one thing where science is not needed at all. And I think you won't come up with anything.

[00:33:38] Mark.: I agree. Yes.

[00:33:41] Markus: Thank you so much for taking the time.

[00:33:44]

[00:33:48] Markus.: That's a wrap on today's episode of the Space Cafe Podcast. Thanks to our guest for taking us behind the scenes at NASA and giving us a peek at what's next in astrophysics.

[00:34:00] Their stories really light up the imagination, don't they? I hope you enjoyed the backdrop of a buzzing Austin evening as much as I did. No filters or tweaks, just us, the sunset and a slice of the big bustling world of South by Southwest. And hey, if you enjoyed the show, do us a big favor and drop us a rating wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[00:34:25] It really helps us reach more space enthusiasts like you. Until then, catch you next time on the Space Cafe Podcast, where we will dive into more stellar conversations, safe travels, my friends, through the stars. Bye bye. 

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