CERN’s Pablo Tello and ESA’s Ian Carnelli: Mindcollider - Fusing Space, Physics, and Big Ideas

In this episode, Markus welcomes two influential guests, Pablo Tello from CERN and Ian Carnelli from the European Space Agency (ESA). They explore the MINDCOLLIDER project, Markus’s brainchild that unites brilliant minds from particle physics and space exploration to help inspire solutions to very mundane or globally pressing issues.

Guest Backgrounds:

• Pablo Tello: A scientist at CERN in Geneva, known for his interdisciplinary approach and contributions to particle physics. He co-heads IdeaSquare, a facility at CERN that fosters innovative thinking.
• Ian Carnelli: Director of ESA’s HERA mission, focused on developing technologies to protect Earth from asteroid impacts. He returns to the podcast with updated insights and experiences.

Conversation Highlights:

• [00:02:29] Innovation and Anticipation: Pablo emphasizes the importance of anticipation in technological development, especially in long-term projects like the LHC. He stresses thinking in orders of magnitude and challenging existing paradigms.
• [00:06:28] Interdisciplinary Collaboration: Ian discusses the significance of interdisciplinary work at ESA, where expertise from various fields combines to drive innovation. He explains how imagining scenarios in space can lead to Earthly solutions.
• [00:14:00] Challenges and Failures: Both guests highlight the necessity of accepting failures in the innovation process and the importance of a culture that embraces risk.
• [00:18:01] Future Vision: The conversation shifts to the broader implications of space and particle physics on sustainable development and societal progress. 

Notable Quotes:

• [00:51:15] Pablo Tello: "Innovation management is an oxymoron. The more management you have, the less innovation."
• [00:52:55] Ian Carnelli: "Success is not in those who succeed; to succeed, you actually have to fail."

Five Key Learnings for Organizations:

1. [00:50:55] Embrace Young Generations: Listen to and empower young people as they bring fresh perspectives and innovative ideas.
2. [00:51:36] Avoid Over-Management: Too much management stifles creativity and innovation. Let people explore and take risks.
3. [00:52:51] Accept Failure: Failure is an integral part of the learning process and a stepping stone to success.
4. [00:53:24] Have a Vision: A clear and strong vision drives long-term success and inspires others.
5. [00:54:15] Promote Collaboration: Shift the focus from individual achievements (me) to collective efforts (we).

Picks for the Space Cafe Podcast Playlist on Spotify:

• [00:55:59] Ian Carnelli: Mozart’s Requiem
• [00:55:45] Pablo Tello: "(I Can’t Get No) Satisfaction" by The Rolling Stones

Additional Resources:

• Visit MindCollider.io for more information about the Mind Collider project.

If you enjoyed this epi

You can find us on Spotify and Apple Podcast!

Please visit us at SpaceWatch.Global, subscribe to our newsletters. Follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter!

Transcript

SCP_107_Master

Introduction and Episode Setup

[00:00:00] ​

[00:00:05] Markus: Hello everyone, this is Space Cafe Podcast, and I'm Markus. I'm truly proud of this episode. Of course, I'm proud of any episode. But it took quite a while to get this one going, because I wanted to do this episode in person, and that required getting two very busy people at the same table at the same location.

[00:00:39] We made it, and here you are. 

Meet the Guests: Pablo Tello and Ian Carnelli

[00:00:41] Markus: Featuring Pablo Tello from the world's most eminent particle physics platform, you guessed it, CERN, in Geneva, Switzerland. Pablo is a scientist, and a great thinker, and fun to be around, and he's got a great beard. And Ian Carnelli. Some of you may know him from an early episode some two or even three years ago.

[00:01:02] Ian is the director of ESA's spectacular planetary defense mission with the goal of getting our technology ready to allow us what the dinosaurs could not, have a solution in place once the rock approaches. 

Discussing Mind Collider

[00:01:16] Markus: I brought them together at the same table to discuss a project that is very dear to my heart, and that over the years, beginning with an innocent idea, turned into something bigger, called Mind Collider.

[00:01:29]

[00:01:30] Markus: the idea, we are drowning in problems wherever we look, and quick fixes are not on the horizon. So, the obvious thing, at least to me, is to go to places where there is expertise when it comes to cracking some serious nuts, like finding out what matter is made up of, or rendezvousing with an asteroid traveling at the speed of 28, 000 kilometers per hour at a distance of 400 million kilometers.[00:02:00]

[00:02:00] Perhaps these folks have something to say when it comes to our mundane issues. I pressed them for a top five list of ingredients to their secret sauce. Because, I know, you want five point lists, right? Everyone wants lists. Have fun, my friends. And please welcome Pablo Tello and Ian Carnelli to the Space Cafe Podcast Thank you. 

[00:02:29] Thanks for joining us. Um, hi 

[00:02:31] Ian: Markus. 

[00:02:32] Markus: Great. This is unusual because usually I have one guest, but for this topic, I felt like we need to team up as a team. As good as we can, because this is a huge topic.

The Role of Big Science in Solving Global Issues

[00:02:45] Markus: The you, the topic we're discussing today is as society on this planet, we know we have huge problems. Um, we're being confronted wherever we look, we are digging up ever more problems. I'm not talking only about climate change. I'm talking about almost anything in a globalized world. we also know that.

[00:03:08] No quick fixes are anywhere out there because we have produced a very complex, chaotic situation where no quick fix is available. So the only thing that is maybe reasonable to do is to take a look at what others do and maybe get inspired, maybe learn from others. And so the idea for this little meeting we're having right now is to try to find out what the space industry.

[00:03:41] What the particle physics industry, Pablo, you're from CERN, Ian, you're from the European Space Agency. What big science can tell us how they work and maybe can inspire very mundane places like corporations, like companies,

[00:03:59] [00:04:00] industries,

[00:04:01] to progress in a more sustainable future. Sustainable meaning not only the ecological sustainability, but also sustainability when it comes to a meaningful future, when it comes to knowledge management, when it comes to how do I deal with my team, uh, how do I deal with my project and whatnot.

ESA's Approach to Challenges

[00:04:23] Markus: Um, let's jump right into the fact of the matter, as this is the Space Cafe Podcast, let's give space the first word. Ian, um,

[00:04:34] what do you think is, is there a secret sauce? at ESA for dealing with challenges, or do we, do you have challenges now

[00:04:46] No, 

[00:04:46] Ian: we never had challenges. By 

[00:04:48] Markus: the you're

[00:04:49] by the way, you're the guy who does planetary defense. So in a nutshell, your role is to defend Earth from disaster. Is that right?

[00:04:59] Ian: Well, I'm more, um, um, I'm more the driver of a mission to test

[00:05:04] an asteroid deflection technique.

[00:05:05] Yes. But I'm not, I mean planetary defense is a big topic. It's not just, uh, diverting asteroids, but it is also about, uh, Finding them and, and learning about them. So there there are a lot more people than me working on planetary defense, just one tiny grain. But challenges in ESA. I mean, challenges are all in ESA.

[00:05:27] Um, and like CERN, and I think ESA and CERN share. the opposite extremes of the worlds, the very, uh, the very large cosmological scales and the microscopic, uh, nanoscopic scales of, of, uh, particles. And they are more related to one another than one can think of. Um, and also in terms of dealing with problems and projects.

[00:05:55] Uh, indeed, we have to deal with, uh, knowledge management, [00:06:00] experience, um, uh, dealing with, uh, human resources and funding, but we all share, I think, uh, our two agencies share a vision. A vision which is the progress of humanity and making Earth a better place. And to make Earth a better place, sometimes, we were discussing before, you have to imagine you are somewhere else.

[00:06:28] And, uh, for us, the somewhere else might be the moon, might be Mars. Uh, and imagine you have, uh, uh, a drawing board, uh, blackboard where you can start imagining yourself, uh, and how you would live there and deal with issues, and this is exactly what we do for, for going to Mars and the moon, but by doing that, we automatically.

[00:06:53] Uh, find solution or hint ways for solutions that are applicable to the earth. Um, so it's, you know, there are all those examples of, uh, technologies for the space station, for astronauts, for even satellites, uh, software developments that, uh, we can then reuse, uh, for other applications. Doesn't mean that space is always at the forefront of technology and innovation.

[00:07:21] It's just that we can dream bigger. Uh, we rely on, uh, technologies very often that, uh, uh, I mean, if they're proven, uh, on earth, there's no need to, to re reinvent the wheel, but space is such a, a difficult environment that sometimes we need to do one more step. And that one more step brings innovation and solutions, uh, that maybe for earth applications were not, uh, were not thought about. So, uh, I think the interesting part of, uh, of space is giving the freedom to think in a, in a, [00:08:00] in a different way, uh, than you would do by constraining yourself to what you know, on planet 

[00:08:06] Markus: is planetary. Wonderful. Thank you. 

CERN's Philosophy and Innovations

[00:08:08] Markus: Pablo, how is, how is this in your world? You're based in Geneva, um, at CERN at a special place called Idea Square. Thank you.

[00:08:17] Pablo: Yes. What is Ideasquare all about? Ideasquare

[00:08:21] is a facility at CERN where we try to, um, to, um, um, convey or share or

[00:08:30] say also train 

[00:08:31] interdisciplinary teams of master level students that are coming from many different universities, business schools, in something that we like to call Think Like CERN. Um, that if I have to

[00:08:46] resume it. Um, it conveys a three point philosophy.

[00:08:52] So the first point is anticipation.

[00:08:56] Uh, what do I mean with this? So the LHC, the Large Hadron Collider, is a machine that it takes 15 to 20 years to be built. So for example, let's suppose that we

[00:09:05] need to build the next one. If we were building it with the technology, of today,

[00:09:12] by the time that we turn it on, is obsolete.

[00:09:15] So we have to anticipate how the technologies are going to look like in 20 years, meaning using what is in the benches of labs, um, taking it to the next step, and in some cases, inventing new technologies.

[00:09:32] The second point is orders of magnitude thinking. So if I were telling you the history of the universe now, um, so, um, with the discovery of the Higgs boson in 2012, uh, means that we are able to describe the universe 10 to the minus

[00:09:52] 12 

[00:09:52] seconds 

[00:09:54] after the

[00:09:54] Big

[00:09:54] Bang. This

[00:09:55] is 1 divided by 1 and 12 zeros. [00:10:00] So it's a very tiny Um, fraction

[00:10:04] So So 

[00:10:04] we 

[00:10:04] Markus: know what happened. Zero, twelve, uh, twelve zeros and one second after the Big Bang. We know what happened. Yes, 

[00:10:12] Pablo: know, with the discovery of the Higgs boson, we know what was going on. Now, as cool as this number looks like, The Big Bang is 10 to the minus 43 seconds, okay?

[00:10:26] So,

[00:10:26] as cool as we think that we are,

[00:10:30] our mission at CERN is 31 orders of magnitude. Because if you do 43 minus 12, it's 31. So it's the gap. that we are trying to address

[00:10:42] is not 20% is not 30%, is not. 70%

[00:10:46] is 10 followed by 31 zeros. Now, if you go to the CERN cafeteria, and then you say, my technology is

[00:10:57] 20 percent better, than what exists today we just don't listen because for us it's incremental, or 80 percent better, or

[00:11:04] 90 percent better. If you say my technology is

[00:11:08] 100 percent better, 100 percent is two orders of magnitude.

[00:11:12] So that allows us to go to 10 to the minus 12 to 10 to the minus 14.

[00:11:18] Markus: So that, that's when people would start listening, or it's 

[00:11:21] Pablo: correct. Because the rest for us is incremental.

[00:11:25] And

[00:11:25] the third philosophy is challenging paradigms

[00:11:32] is 

[00:11:32] something that everybody takes for granted.

[00:11:37] And by experience I can tell you, I have witnessed it many times. Many, many times. It's the

[00:11:43] typical

[00:11:44] situation in which you go and you say, wow, we could do this. And there is somebody that says, yeah, I know but it's complicated or things are not done in this way.

[00:11:55] uh, let me put you an example. Um, the invention of the WWW, [00:12:00] the World Wide Web at CERN. So

[00:12:01] what is the deep paradigm that it challenged in the world of communication? Before the web. Uh, when Entity

[00:12:12] A. Needed to communicate to Entity B, A and

[00:12:16] B being

[00:12:17] humans, computers, whatever, you had to choose.

[00:12:22] Whether you were the sender of the message or the receiver

[00:12:25] of the message,

[00:12:26] like when you talk on the phone, if you are speaking, you are the sender of the message,

[00:12:31] If you are listening, you are the receiver, but you cannot be both at the same time, and this is what people assumed, but the web challenged this assumption and said, why you cannot be both. And indeed,

[00:12:45] um, that's why

[00:12:46] today

[00:12:47] you have Zoom, You have social media,

[00:12:50] you have e banking, you have e commerce. Because you can be both. And this, when you challenge a fundamental assumption,

[00:12:59] uh, and you do innovation, you are automatically transforming the world. So, this is the three point philosophy that we try to convey at IdeaSquare, which I think that, as you said, Markus, this Uh, given the humongous problems that we have in the world today, in all kinds of directions, either we think in a

[00:13:22] different way, or

[00:13:23] we know that business as usual is not going to make 

[00:13:26] Markus: Mm hmm. 

[00:13:27] Pablo: So 

Interdisciplinary Collaboration and Innovation

[00:13:27] Markus: it's all about, I'm opening this discussion for the two of you, so is it about developing a different mindset, a new mindset? Because we see that the mindset that we're employing now, that we have been using so far, maybe has brought us here. To that table, we have fancy technology, but at the same time, we have challenges that bring us at,

[00:13:54] a point where we know we cannot go on like this.

[00:13:57] So do we need a new mindset? [00:14:00] What do you think?

[00:14:00] Ian: In my case, I mean, uh, absolutely.

[00:14:03] Markus: Or will technology solve all the problems that we have?

[00:14:06] No, no way.

[00:14:07] Pablo: Sometimes it makes it worse.

[00:14:10] Ian: but I think, uh, it's important that we start getting out of the comfort zone.

[00:14:14] Uh, I think most, most of us, uh, are used to live in a society where we feel comfortable with the status quo. And that prevents innovation. So, uh, whenever we can, we'd rather keep things as they are, uh, so that, uh, we don't get stressed by changes and, uh, only by changing, uh, we can achieve innovation. And, uh, as you were saying, Pablo, if, if we, if we, uh, if we challenge the status quo.

[00:14:46] That's when we can, uh, we can achieve, uh, uh, new results and we can change the world. I think it's important today even more. I think we talked about the word World Wide Web at local scale is in my, it's all about interdisciplinary work. I think what we, we do, um, Can be done only because, uh, we have, uh, expertise coming from different backgrounds, different competencies, uh, different nationalities, cultures that are working together that can bring that spark, uh, allowing new ideas to emerge.

[00:15:29] When sometimes, sometimes, you know, you know, we, we have lots of problems on the air mission and the only way to solve them is by sitting around the table with people who has nothing to do with, uh, with that particular problem, but they all see it, uh, from a mindset of a physicist, of an engineer, of a financial expert, uh, uh, that bring a little, uh, a different view [00:16:00] that allows something new to emerge.

[00:16:03] And I think innovation can only come from interdisciplinary work.

[00:16:08] I 

[00:16:09] Pablo: that. Um,

[00:16:11] now, yeah, for me the question, and this is a particular opinion, but, um, if you take a look to the list of

[00:16:20] sustainable development goals and the challenges that are associated, this is,

[00:16:25] um, something that we do

[00:16:27] at Idea Square.

[00:16:28] at CERN. we try to link sustainable development

[00:16:31] goals with this way of thinking, um, in the hope that future generations can think differently about them. But if you, if you take a look at them, most of the challenges that you see there,

[00:16:47] um,

[00:16:48] I don't think they're entirely technological challenges. It would be very nice that we could

[00:16:54] solve everything with technology.

[00:16:56] Unfortunately,

[00:16:58] um,

[00:16:58] I think that most of

[00:16:59] them are social challenges

[00:17:02] in which

[00:17:02] technology might help, but what we need is a It's a hundred and eighty degree turn in the way we think. Um, I always like to cite, um, a saying of the, of the Native Americans

[00:17:19] that I think it resumes the type of mindset change that we have to adopt.

[00:17:25] They say, we always think that we are preparing the world

[00:17:29] for the future generations,

[00:17:31] But

[00:17:31] in reality,

[00:17:32] we are borrowing it from them, which is an inversion of reasoning. It's acknowledging that, uh, we are indeed borrowing the world

[00:17:45] from the. With the permission of the future generations,

[00:17:50] And it's our duty to actually keep this borrowing world in a, in a good shape.

[00:17:56] So I think that if we start thinking [00:18:00] inversely, we

[00:18:01] will realize that business as usual is not going to make it. And there is one thing

[00:18:10] that,

[00:18:11] um, I have learned over the years, uh, and it's more experiential knowledge about

[00:18:17] why innovation doesn't work or

[00:18:21] why it's so difficult to do innovation. And it's the following, I mean, it's just my theory, it's not

[00:18:26] proven, it's more coming from experience.

[00:18:30] I think that inside of us, each one of us, there is a control freak hidden. And why is that?

[00:18:43] Because we have evolved like

[00:18:46] this during millennia. 

[00:18:48] Um, 

[00:18:49] in order to survive,

[00:18:52] um, we needed to control the environment around us.

[00:18:57] Um,

[00:18:59] and, um, and be prepared to the

[00:19:02] unexpected.

[00:19:04] This is called in

[00:19:05] modern time, management. Now, you have a process that is innovation, that is exactly the opposite of That's why I always say that innovation management is an oxymoron

[00:19:19] because management is about control and innovation is about setting the people free. And we are, our brain is not prepared for that 

[00:19:29] because 

[00:19:30] it takes an enormous amount of courage to say, guys, here is the money. I set you free, to be honest, I don't expect any result. 

[00:19:45] are not prepared for So, at the managerial level, this is the struggle.

[00:19:51] We are

[00:19:52] struggling against how our brains have evolved in terms of [00:20:00] And that's why, well, you have People with no patience, people only looking to the next quarter,

[00:20:08] uh,

[00:20:09] innovations that they never cross the valley of that because, um, projects are call it off.

[00:20:15] Um, I I think there's a deeper

[00:20:19] level,

[00:20:21] um, on why it's so difficult to do innovation as human beings. But 

[00:20:28] Markus: internally, uh, at ESA, at CERN, you are closer to that target that you were Criticizing at the moment, in the ways you

[00:20:40] do project management, what I saw, just, just a second. I, I saw, A paper when I was at CERN, I visited CERN, I visited IdeaSquare and what impressed me was, I don't know, it was a 25 page paper and you had 10 pages science and 15 pages, pages, authors in alphabetic order.

[00:21:03] Pablo: Yeah, the paper of the 

[00:21:04] Higgs boson. And

[00:21:05] Markus: is something I like because it's alphabetic order and it's even, it's, it's integrating anyone who had, anything to do with that project. Maybe, I don't know if it's including the cleaning personnel, I don't know, but it's the alphabetic order and it's everyone. 

[00:21:22] Pablo: Well,

[00:21:23] I mean, I think that, I think that in the, um, Yeah, CERN is a sort of exceptional in a way that, that, um,

[00:21:34] well, first of all, it has the luxury of receiving Public funding from the member states.

[00:21:39] uh, an insufficient amount that you can perform a research program continuously, um,

[00:21:46] which is required if you want to do something

[00:21:49] in the world of particle physics

[00:21:51] And then

[00:21:52] the, the, community of particle physics is pretty

[00:21:55] much horizontal.

[00:21:56] in the

[00:21:57] sense

[00:21:57] that we,

[00:21:59] a [00:22:00] project like the LHC, Um, doesn't have a LHC CEO,

[00:22:07] uh, that decides.

[00:22:08] you know, about this project.

[00:22:10] It starts, difficult to believe, but it starts in a conference of

[00:22:15] particle

[00:22:16] physics

[00:22:17] when

[00:22:18] sufficient amount of drinks

[00:22:19] are running.

[00:22:21] and in the last hour of the conference, well, there's a bunch of physicists and engineers and applied physicists around the table and one of them says, or a couple of them says, Wouldn't it be fun to,

[00:22:38] And then, of course,

[00:22:39] goes the whole process, but

[00:22:42] it's pretty much bottom up.

[00:22:43] That's why you have

[00:22:44] this paper of

[00:22:46] 23

[00:22:47] pages of names

[00:22:48] and a couple of papers of signs that is one of the papers of the Higgs boson, because

[00:22:55] it's

[00:22:55] an example of people that are collaborating for something that is beyond themselves. and

[00:23:01] everybody is acknowledging the same footing.

[00:23:04] So

[00:23:05] that's why also ESA is all about.

[00:23:08] It's the spirit. It's the

[00:23:11] sort of, I want to be there

[00:23:16] And believe me, even in the beginning of the search of the Higgs boson and during the search of the Higgs boson, there were physicists that were convinced that we were not going to find anything. But nevertheless, they collaborated equally to the project because they thought it was worth trying. So, I think that's the spirit that we need in the society of Fantastic.

[00:23:39] Ian: Yeah, I think we share a lot more than I imagined, but I was going to say something, I was going to say something very similar. We are privileged because we have this long term, uh, projects and funding stability that are not looking like any private corporation to the immediate return.

[00:23:59] And if you [00:24:00] want to challenge, uh, you achieve, uh, something big, you need this type of stability. You cannot, so climate change, you cannot invest 1 million euro and, and pretend that the next, in the next year, I'm going to have solved this part of the climate change. These problems require stability, require a vision, uh, require motivation, inspiration, and, uh, And here, uh, ESA and CERN are about this, is that you bring together, uh, researchers, engineers, uh, managers that share this vision, this passion for many years.

[00:24:41] Pablo: Yeah, I always say that

[00:24:42] CERN is one of the few, as well as ESA probably, is one of the few places

[00:24:46] in the world that you can see, um, Indians working with Pakistanis, um, Israelis with Palestinians, and even Spanish with the Spanish. Which is even more challenging. 

Long-term Thinking and Future Scenarios

[00:25:05] Markus: That long term thinking is especially compelling to, to my ears because I think this is something that we're lacking in our societies, in our companies and corporations. We think in election cycles, we think in budgetary cycles, but there was, uh, if, if I remember that correct, Pablo, um, you, I think it was you who, who produced that.

[00:25:30] challenging question to think into the next 30 years with your company and just imagine your company is not around in 30 years from now. That, 

[00:25:42] Pablo: Yeah, 

[00:25:42] this

[00:25:43] is, I

[00:25:43] mean,

[00:25:44] this is,

[00:25:44] this is, um, so at IdeaSquare besides of the, um, of the programs that we have for the students, exceptionally, we run, um, sort deep dive workshops for companies,

[00:25:59] Um,[00:26:00]

[00:26:01] deep dive workshops are about thinking in future scenarios.

[00:26:05] And I always say that if you want to think about the future scenario

[00:26:10] of an organization, you have to,

[00:26:13] uh, think about on a time span in which your organization has disappeared because it has become obsolete

[00:26:20] because new technology

[00:26:22] has arrived and then backtrack

[00:26:24] to see what do you need to do today in order for this scenario. something that curiously is rarely exercised because when you go to, um, private sector organizations, large corporations, I have worked in some of them and for

[00:26:44] some of them in my past. Um, whenever you ask them about the future of their sector, 

[00:26:51] they 

[00:26:52] trace a picture in which they are. This future includes them. So I think it's the wrong assumption.

[00:27:01] or this is not, uh, this

[00:27:03] assumption is not

[00:27:04] preparing you for, uh, expecting the, uh, unthinkable. And and we have historical examples of organizations in the private sector that has been

[00:27:15] caught by surprise.

[00:27:17] Think about Kodak, for example,

[00:27:19] or many other examples.

[00:27:21] So we need to think in, um, if we want to innovate. think we need to think in a future where

[00:27:28] whatever that we do today is completely irrelevant.

[00:27:32] or disappeared.

[00:27:34] Markus: Fantastic. So, because this is super important. So the question again, imagine your company, your institution, whatever is important to you, is not around anymore in 30 years from now. What can you do today?

[00:27:48] To prevent that. This is extremely powerful.

[00:27:51] Pablo: Oh, ask the young people.

[00:27:54] 20 something.[00:28:00]

[00:28:00] Uh,

[00:28:01] Whenever I'm invited to a conference about talking about the future, uh, the first question I ask to the audience is, How many of you are less than 20 years?

[00:28:14] Normally nobody raises their hand because they're big brains in Brussels or whatever it

[00:28:19] is. We are all big brains there. And I say, if we are not Less than 19 years old, what are we doing here talking about the future? We are not going to be there.

[00:28:28] I mean,

[00:28:30] ask the guys of 19, 12,

[00:28:33] 15 today.

[00:28:36] Markus: What can we do today to transfer.

[00:28:40] That spark that is happening inside of your worlds to the outside. Ideasquare, I think, has It built into its DNA to do just that, to transfer to students. But what else can we do

[00:28:59] to

[00:29:00] transfer that mindset to the outside?

[00:29:03] Ian: Well, I think we can, um, at least what we do in ESA is to Try to set up long term projects that are so inspiring for young generations that they want to get involved. This is also part of the reason why I'm here today. And many of us in ESA try to, to, to really outreach to young generation and say, look, uh, I'm not designing a spaceship for me.

[00:29:28] I'm designing a spaceship because I. I hope one day you will be able to go on the Moon or Mars or explore the solar system, find out if we have oceans, uh, uh, under, underneath, uh, uh, ice layers, uh, on some moons in our solar system or study exoplanets and so on and so forth. All of this. Uh, it is for the future.

[00:29:54] So we need to inspire them. Uh, we need to involve them. So there's also a very interesting [00:30:00] exercise we do in i a where, uh, when we, um, we do preliminary studies for future missions. We always have young graduate trainees. The same room as, uh, expert engineers who have designed plenty of missions. And, uh, in principle, uh, each discipline, um, participating in a design exercise has a young and an experienced working together.

[00:30:30] And I think that's very important for two reasons. One is what Pablo was saying is that ingenuity of the young generations bring, uh, that spark. Um, and, uh, and the second is that the training you can get, uh, from somebody experience to bring your dream to, to reality, this is what, uh, Uh, I had the, the, myself, the, uh, um, the privilege of be doing when we start thinking about, uh, defending planet Earth from asteroids, you know, in the, in the, in the old times, we're thinking about using mirrors to melt the surface of asteroids or painting them, spraying them with a different color to change the, the thermal, uh, radiation or, uh, you know, uh, Sending nukes, of course, we've seen that in Hollywood, but there was a phase, now everything seems so normal, no?

[00:31:23] Now we send a probe, we impact the asteroid, we do this kinetic impact and we deflect the asteroid. But back then, there was this ingenuity that brought us to the solution and that ingenuity comes from, uh, from young, from, from fantasy really. We need to, we need to dream. And I think we always need, you know, when, when, when they ask me what kind of person I am, I always say I'm, I'm the biggest dreamer I can think of.

[00:31:50] I, I, I spend my time dreaming and that probably is a little bit the exercise.

[00:31:56] You dream where you want to be in the future, and then you go [00:32:00] backwards and you say, okay, How do I make it happen? It's all about, but then we can think about methodologies. We can think about exercises, but we do, we, we are born.

[00:32:11] To, to dream since we are kids and, and we just need to believe it. 

[00:32:15] Pablo: I think you have said a very important thing um, we have to inspire them, inspire

[00:32:21] the young people.

[00:32:22] one thing I have realized over these years dealing with the students is that they don't buy, um, they don't buy you unless they don't feel that you have passion.

[00:32:34] Thank you. When you

[00:32:36] are communicating with them.

[00:32:39] When they feel that you are

[00:32:41] passionate about what you are doing, they get interested.

[00:32:45] Uh, and the same goes for a project or for an endeavor. It

[00:32:51] has

Empowering Students Through Unconventional Methods

[00:32:52] Pablo: to have an element that engages them passionately. Uh, and

[00:32:57] a second

[00:32:58] word that I would add is empower them. Uh, I mean, don't, don't, So for them it's hard. I have, I'm kind of brutal in the workshop that I run with the students because I don't, I invented my own methodologies in the sense that I don't like

[00:33:22] all this hyper canvassed

[00:33:25] Education methodologies that we have today, like everything is through a canvas, the business plan canvas, the, impact canvas,

[00:33:35] the, whatever it is,

[00:33:38] This is sort of chopping 

[00:33:43] the way they need to 

[00:33:45] find out a solution because everything is just filling the canvas. So I present to them the challenge.

[00:33:54] Then they ask about the canvas. And then I say, there is no canvas. If you want the [00:34:00] canvas, you make the canvas

[00:34:02] will. 

[00:34:04] And the first reaction is about panic. 

[00:34:07] Because it's totally

[00:34:08] different. 

[00:34:10] Nothing.

[00:34:11] Um, I don't even

[00:34:15] Tell them how they have to organize themselves

[00:34:17] in the project because it's their project and how they

[00:34:21] organize themselves in the flow of information or whatever is part of the innovation process. So,

[00:34:28] because

[00:34:30] one thing

[00:34:31] is.

[00:34:32] education for students,

[00:34:35] and, uh, and uh, sort of curriculum

[00:34:41] in which, uh, Um, yeah, you have textbooks,

[00:34:45] and if

[00:34:46] you don't know the solution to a problem, you

[00:34:48] just flip

[00:34:49] the pages and find the solution at the end of the book,

[00:34:52] or whatever

[00:34:53] it is.

[00:34:53] In innovation and research, you don't have such a thing. You don't find the solution at

[00:34:58] the end of the book. So, and this is becoming an innovator. This is becoming a researcher.

[00:35:06] ..So I

[00:35:06] try to do this thing with the students. and in the

[00:35:09] in the very first

[00:35:11] couple of days it's disorienting for them.

[00:35:14] and there is drama,

[00:35:17] but then they always remember the process, and

[00:35:21] I think at the

[00:35:22] end of the day, it empowers them, because otherwise I will be giving them baby food. which I don't think

[00:35:29] it helps in anything,

[00:35:31] Because then we go

[00:35:33] to the

[00:35:33] real world and we see complexity and problems

[00:35:38] like poverty, like inequality. Um, where is the book

[00:35:42] that I can 

[00:35:43] flip 

[00:35:45] to

[00:35:45] see the solution? So

[00:35:48] I think we need to, yes, as Ian said, inspire them,

[00:35:52] but also empower them. Um, because one of these days, they're going to be the guys at [00:36:00] the command of the society.

[00:36:03] Ian: And

The Importance of Multinational Collaboration

[00:36:03] Ian: if I may add, I mean, going back to your regional question is, uh, what can we do, how we, I think the best we can provide as an example or inspiration is, um, is really this multinational environment. Uh, ESA is restricted to Europe, but then CERN is, is, is wider, but you can think big projects like ITAR, um, that are really worldwide.

[00:36:29] To me, this is the best example to prepare future generations to work together and that you're saying this is across borders. Space is across borders. So if you think about, you know, Cold War, Russian US meeting in space, but even today they're still, despite the war in Ukraine, we're still working together in the space station.

[00:36:53] This is humanity, and this is the humanity at its best, not because it's the best knowledgeable people, but it's because we are believing in something bigger, and all the rest

[00:37:07] goes beyond borders. By working together, you realize that you go to the essential of people, uh, and you don't care, uh, about, uh, all the political constraints or the, so you need a vision and you need to be trained to be working together beyond borders.

[00:37:25] And this, this is, I think what Europe can do at its best with the Erasmus programs, that things like this, that seem trivial, but to me, this is the foundation. Having kids, uh, that are able to live in different European countries and building bonds, uh, that goes across, uh, cultures. This is setting the right, this is I think the best investment we can do as a society for the future. 

[00:37:54] Pablo: absolutely agree. I absolutely agree with you and, um,

[00:37:58] and [00:38:00] um,

[00:38:01] So,

[00:38:02] it's interesting because

Embracing Diversity in Innovation

[00:38:03] Pablo: everybody talks about embracing diversity,

[00:38:07] um, and so on, but in a sort of romantic way.

[00:38:10] And I fully support, uh, embracing diversity and I think as

[00:38:14] you say, and this is one of the keys. Now the, the, process doesn't go as smooth as you can think because, uh, embracing

[00:38:25] diversity is being prepared to actually accept,

[00:38:30] acknowledge, respect, um, different cultures, different ways of seeing things,

[00:38:37] Um, completely different ways of understanding the life, and, and when you have a project that goes beyond, um, your particular universe,

[00:38:48] Like in ESA or at CERN, I

[00:38:51] think diversity is always a plus. Now, it doesn't, it doesn't go

[00:38:55] like smooth

[00:38:56] and everybody is walking around hunky dory. It takes time for adaptation, but but the final output is, is, is way

[00:39:05] bigger than than with a monochromatic tone. 

[00:39:09] Markus: Let's try to, to go extreme now with your suggestion.

Challenges and Realities of Visionary Thinking

[00:39:13] Markus: So, just imagine, take a carpenter who, who, Liv's out there right now saying, no one wants to buy my chairs anymore, or my tables I build, we have an economic depression going on. Your ideas come from a very privileged situation. Um, you're being financed by a national government and whatnot. Um, what do I need your vision for?

[00:39:39] I don't have time for a vision. I need to make money now. Is there a truth in it? Or Or, what do you think about some, some kind of, I don't know, is it criticism? Maybe it's a realistic place this person is in right now.

[00:39:58] Pablo: No,

[00:39:59] I, uh, [00:40:00] look, I'm going to be

[00:40:00] very honest with this. Uh, if you paint me the picture of a carpenter,

[00:40:07] let's say in Bangladesh. that,

[00:40:12] um, because of whatever situation, nobody's buying the furniture, 

[00:40:17] Um, honestly speaking, I don't have anything to say as A person at CERN in a lab of particle physics, this guy has more serious problems to solve. Or if I have a guy with a small and medium sized company selling shoes

[00:40:38] that is becoming engulfed by the

[00:40:41] competition. Thank you for listening. Um,

[00:40:43] no, we,

[00:40:44] we, we, at least I, mean, I don't pretend even

[00:40:48] to say that we have a solution for the problems of this guy No, I mean, uh, definitely not. it would be it would be ridiculous I think that we have anything to say in this situation.

[00:41:08] Ian: It's a complicated question. 

Adapting to Evolution in Business

[00:41:09] Ian: I think the biggest failure is education in this culture. And again, I mean, it's not because ESA cannot bring solutions, but I, so I'm just speaking as myself, as Giancarnelli.

[00:41:22] If, um, if you're not selling, uh, I mean I have, I come from Italy. Italy is a place historically that was divided in, in very small city states, right? And it's, the culture is still similar to that. Everyone is looking at its own city, at his own yard, at his own practice. And, uh, very often I hear, ah, 20 years ago was, we were living so much better before we had, uh, this and that, uh, political situation, et cetera.

[00:41:57] People don't realize that [00:42:00] we, we are, there's a natural evolution, right? That you cannot stop. Humanity will always evolve. So you can either embrace evolution or you can fight against evolution. If you, if you embrace evolution, then you have to look into the opportunities. Think about where you will be, uh, in the future. So today I'm, uh, I'm not able as a carpenter, I'm not able to sell furniture anymore. I see actually where I come from. There were lots of manufacturers of furniture, uh, kitchens and tables. Uh, we have very famous brands. Um, Why are not selling? Because today we, we buy, we don't care so much about having maybe furniture the last 20 years, because we know we're going to be moving to another place very soon.

[00:42:53] So the, the, the, the, the lifestyle has changed, but I'm pretty sure, uh, but I can tell you another thing that if I want to do a piece of furniture, um, custom made for my flat, I have to wait two years Because I cannot find a single fern, uh, um, Carpenter that is available to do what I, what I ask and, and it costs a fortune.

[00:43:17] So, I see companies closing and the same work taking three years to get done because there's not enough capability there. I see, uh, I see a lot of unemployment and at the same time, I hear that there are companies that are not able

[00:43:37] to recruit because there, there is no, there's no manpower. There are no people, so they have to come from abroad And I think this is the fundamental to answer your, your practical questions. What would you answer? I think we need to look into the evolution of some jobs. And of course, if I keep looking at, uh, At, uh, what I'm doing now in the perimeter and I don't [00:44:00] look outside, uh, I will fail at some point because, uh, civilization will evolve.

[00:44:07] But if you follow the evolution and you're, you're, you are, you're curious, we were talking about curiosity and you will find

[00:44:14] opportunities there for sure. So okay. We come from a very privileged and I, I fully recognize, uh, environment. But we are also working extremely hard, uh, to, to achieve our, uh, our dreams.

[00:44:28] Um, uh, we are, we are, uh, while doing so, hopefully bringing the next generations with us and trying to follow this evolution and push this evolution in a way that others can profit from it. 

[00:44:42] I 

[00:44:43] Markus: Still, no, absolutely, but still, 

[00:44:45] I 

[00:44:45] think, because, um, uh, that future mindset is still resonating very clearly with me. So maybe even, and this is perhaps very hypothetical, if we stick to the Carpenter situation, what if the Carpenter had made up his mind?

[00:45:02] their minds 30 years ago about the evolution of their products, what makes them unique. Maybe some of them would be in a different place because with a strong vision beyond mere table building, what is, why is my table special? What is the vision behind my table? Maybe to give additional flavor to the product.

[00:45:27] to a product is, is, is what you, you were suggesting Pablo, if I understand you correctly, thinking into the future and asking oneself, what I do, I do have to do. Now,

[00:45:39] Pablo: Yeah. Okay. So, okay. In that sense. yes. I mean, I can. 

[00:45:46] we

[00:45:46] can discuss, I mean, I can discuss with this

[00:45:50] hypothetical carpenter

[00:45:52] and so on and analyze the situation, but, um,

[00:45:58] I, I, think it's important [00:46:00] to,

[00:46:00] um, recognize that nobody has all

[00:46:04] the questions and nobody has all the answers

[00:46:07] in this world. And, that you have a perimeter of influence or a perimeter of action and it will be I would say adventurous to, um, to, um, pretend that what you are talking or practicing applies to everything. Everybody everywhere. Um, I would not recommend to actually adopt the three point philosophy that I mentioned that we tried to convey to the students to, um,

[00:46:39] shoe manufacturing company.

[00:46:42] this is a different

[00:46:43] realm. Uh, and we understand this limitations pretty well in physics, for example. I mean, uh, um, um, I don't need to apply general relativity to calculate how my ball is going to the goal in a football game.

[00:47:01] I can deal with Newtonian mechanics. So every philosophy has its own level of application and its own perimeter. Um, when you try to

[00:47:13] extrapolate

[00:47:14] it forcibly, then You fall into the pitfall of I have a hammer and then everything's a nail. Uh, I I'm a mentor, um, in an NGO called United People Global. I have more than

[00:47:36] four, 500, um, mainly African students online.

[00:47:43] And I discuss twice

[00:47:45] a month about their little businesses. And I try to help them personally, not on behalf of CERN or whatever, me as a, as personal. And there are many carpenters, there are many [00:48:00] plumbers, there are people dealing with little business of, of, um, education. Um, I take out my heart of CERN and I put

[00:48:14] on my heart of

[00:48:18] putting myself in their skin and trying to do something meaningful for them. For example, I will keep you, I will put you an example.

[00:48:28] The

[00:48:28] other day I was talking with, uh, Mohamed, that is a chemistry, um, engineer that studied in France and, um,

[00:48:40] With brilliant grades, but he decided to go back to Morocco. He bought a van, and now he runs village, by village, um, performing little experiments

[00:48:53] of chemistry for the kids

[00:48:55] that were supposed

[00:48:56] to be at school,

[00:48:58] to motivate them for coming back to school and so on. And we were discussing, uh, the way in which he can buy An additional van. Um, if I start talking to Mohammed in the terms that I teach innovation

[00:49:17] to the students at CERN, which are living in different

[00:49:21] contexts, then Mohammed will tell me,

[00:49:24] What are you telling me? I mean, this is not helping me in any way to buy a second van. So I think it's important to see, which things and which philosophy applies to what. 

[00:49:39] Markus: Wonderful. Um, I'm a list person. 

Five Key Learnings for Innovation

[00:49:42] Markus: I think maybe some of our listeners are also, can, can we create a five point list of learnings, um, from our conversation, what could be beneficial to companies, institutions within the bubble, [00:50:00] uh, we live in, um, to adopt a mindset, um, that you have been designing or explaining so far.

[00:50:11] Um, so what would be the five points that could be of interest you've, you deem critical? Young, young generations is, yeah, we said, listen to, listen to the 

[00:50:23] young 

[00:50:23] Pablo: Yes,

[00:50:24] absolutely.

[00:50:25] And with my 

[00:50:27] Of 

[00:50:27] course,

[00:50:27] absolutely. 

[00:50:29] Markus: We 

[00:50:29] are 

[00:50:29] Pablo: creating a list of five poets.

[00:50:32] So I

[00:50:32] think mine is, if you do want, if you really want to do innovation, you have to internalize that you have to let the people go. If you don't internalize this. then most probably you will end up doing incremental innovation. 

[00:50:52] So that people 

[00:50:53] Markus: run with their dreams.

[00:50:57] Pablo: I say, okay, let me, let me, let me, just do my best, uh, in a sort of, um, um, marketing slogan.

[00:51:08] Innovation management is an oxymoron.

[00:51:13] The

[00:51:13] more management you have, the less innovation and vice versa.

[00:51:17] So, it's hard, but if you want to innovate radically, you have to let the people go. Without anybody ensuring 

[00:51:28] that you are going to have 

[00:51:29] anything out 

[00:51:30] of 

[00:51:30] it.

[00:51:32] Markus: So, young generations, don't overmanage

[00:51:35] Ian: risk. I 

[00:51:36] think you need to, to create a culture of, uh, uh, of being open to risk. Uh, you mentioned the fact that, uh, some were contributing to the Higgs boson research, uh, uh, believing that they would not find, uh, anything.

[00:51:52] I think you And I think this is exact, the exact spirit we need to allow, uh, people to fail and [00:52:00] to, uh, to fall, to follow their vision. Even if you believe they will be failing. I think this is a key element, 

[00:52:07] uh, for

[00:52:08] innovation. 

[00:52:09] Markus: failing is part of learning. 

[00:52:11] Ian: way

[00:52:12] more

[00:52:12] exactly. It's Exactly. Success is not in those who is, you know, to, to, to, to succeed, you actually have to fail.

[00:52:22] And, uh, my personal experience is all about failures. And then, uh, everybody, you know, praises the, the success, but the success is just a one more failure.

[00:52:34] Markus: Good. Um, vision, having a vision, a strong vision is maybe also something we could put Yes, 

[00:52:40] Pablo: I

[00:52:41] would say having passion.

[00:52:43] Um, If you're undertaking any project big

[00:52:49] or small, if you don't have passion

[00:52:51] for it, I mean, if it's something that is a kind of hobby for the weekend or whatever, you will never make it. Innovation doesn't come without effort. The only thing is that we tend to romanticize

[00:53:05] it, idealize it, write

[00:53:07] these books about, how to be an innovator in 10 steps that you buy in the airports. No way. I mean, right, it's 

[00:53:16] Markus: it's a lot of work. Yes. It's a lot of work.

[00:53:19] right. One, one slot to, to fill. So we got the young generations. We don't have to overmanage.

[00:53:25] We should accept, um, failures. Um, one 

[00:53:31] Pablo: more.

[00:53:31] I would say forget about your ego. Uh, I always say that

[00:53:37] big projects, um, um, They have an element of success that is a very simple one. One of the key ones for me. uh, Imagine a PowerPoint slide in which

[00:53:52] you have only one word. In the center

[00:53:55] of the slide that is me. Now

[00:53:59] flip [00:54:00] 180 degrees the M, what do you have?

[00:54:03] Markus: We. 

[00:54:06] Wonderful. 

[00:54:07] Pablo: If you don't make the transition from the me to the we 

[00:54:12] Markus: That's interesting because if you sit across the table and you have that written on, on a piece of paper, the other person would read either me or we. Correct. So would never read the same. Correct. Good. I like that.

[00:54:24] Ian: It's a nice one. 

[00:54:25] Markus: Wonderful. Um, yeah, I think we have, that was really fruitful. Thank you so

[00:54:30] much. No, 

[00:54:30] Pablo: thanks 

[00:54:30] to

[00:54:30] you, you, It was fun. Ian for uh, sharing so many things.

[00:54:36] And indeed,

[00:54:36] I mean, the, the, the big scale cosmology and the small scale particle

[00:54:43] physics, they meet because you

[00:54:44] have this, uh,

[00:54:46] uh, particle physics cosmology that is probably the

[00:54:50] future of

[00:54:51] Yes, 

[00:54:51] Ian: Yes, absolutely. And, uh, think it's, uh, linking the extremes, the extreme worlds. It's super 

[00:54:57] fascinating. 

Fun and Thought-Provoking Questions

[00:54:59] Markus: ask you a very fun question, which we have at the end of every Space Cafe Podcast. It's completely unrelated now. Um, if, would you go to space if the call came?

[00:55:11] Oh 

[00:55:11] yeah. 

[00:55:12] Pablo: I mean, absolutely.

[00:55:14] Markus: Because

[00:55:15] I 

[00:55:15] don't 

[00:55:15] Pablo: think I'm 

[00:55:16] qualifying 

[00:55:16] Markus: No worries. Because if the call came, um, and you were set on a spaceship, it's usually a very boring thing.

[00:55:26] Journey, wherever you go, because it takes very long and there is lots of time to kill. So my question to you, what would be the one piece of music? You wouldn't want to miss on that journey and you get to, the cool thing is we have a playlist on Spotify. It's called the Playlist for the Aspiring Space Traveler.

[00:55:45] And each guest contributes their one tune. And so now it's up to you Which tune are you picking? Whoever to start. it's Just one. 

[00:55:54] Ian: just 

[00:55:54] one. 

[00:55:54] Pablo: just one. just pick I can't 

[00:55:57] I will pick I [00:56:00] Get No 

[00:56:00] The Rolling Stones. 

[00:56:01] Ian: Good. 

[00:56:05] I'm tempted to go with Mozart's Requiem actually. Really? Yes. Very uplifting. Yes, there's a Nice.

[00:56:16] Markus: And, and the last question now, this is called the Space Cafe Podcast. It's a coffee place. Coffee, you as an Italian know that best at this table is coffee. sometimes used to energize ourselves, to energize our bodies. Now, I challenge you to share an espresso for the mind with, with us. What could be a shot of inspiration you would like to share with me, with the audience?

[00:56:42] Um, and we call that the espresso for the mind. 

[00:56:45] Ian: Do you 

[00:56:46] want to start? I going to say that success is only coming if you fail one more time. So that's, that's the takeaway, the biggest takeaway from, from managing a project for almost 20 years or making it happen is really that the amount of failures were absolutely necessary to make it happen and to, to succeed in the end.

[00:57:12] Markus: Pablo. 

[00:57:13] Pablo: I would

[00:57:13] say. the last thing I mentioned, change the me for the we. 

[00:57:17] Good. 

[00:57:18] Markus: Thank you so much, guys.

[00:57:19] Pablo: Thank 

[00:57:19] Ian: you 

[00:57:20] Thank 

[00:57:20] you. 

[00:57:20] Marcus. 

[00:57:21] Markus: Thanks a lot. Yeah. 

[00:57:22] Ian: Thank you. Super

[00:57:22] fun. Thank you, Pablo.

[00:57:24]

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[00:57:32] Markus: If you are interested in learning more about the MindCollider project I mentioned in the beginning, please head over to mindcollider. io. In a nutshell, We bring groups of up to 20 people from industries across the board to CERN or ESA to get inspired and develop new mindsets when it comes to thinking and doing business about and in the future, in the most [00:58:00] sustainable and long lasting way possible.

[00:58:02] My friends, if you like what you heard, please leave us a review or rating wherever you listen to this. It not only means a lot to us, but also helps drive this show to ever greater heights. interest. Stay safe and stay curious. Take care. Bye bye. 

[00:58:19] ​