Unlimited Energy from Space: the Potential of Geostationary Solar Farms

Guest Background: Martin Soltau leads Space Solar, a company dedicated to developing space-based solar power technology. With experience in leading space business initiatives at Fraser Nash Consultancy and a strong interest in energy solutions, Martin is focused on achieving Net Zero emissions through innovative methods. His efforts have been crucial in gaining government support for space-based solar power.

Highlights:

The Origin of the Mission:

Martin’s Journey into Space-Based Solar Power: Began six years ago, driven by the UK government's need for credible Net Zero solutions.

Early Challenges: Initial skepticism from politicians and the breakthrough that came from finding a supportive physicist in the government.

The Space Energy Initiative:

Formation: Bringing together industry, academia, and government to support space-based solar power development.

Integration: The importance of integrating the energy and space sectors for the success of space-based solar power.

Technical and Economic Viability:

Studies by Fraser Nash: Leading to positive conclusions and recommendations.

How It Works: Solar panels in space beaming energy to Earth 24/7, through all weather conditions.

Current and Future Testing:

International Efforts: Testing in the US, Japan, and China.

Space Solar's Timeline: Plans for a substantial proof of concept in space within six years.

Advantages and Challenges:

Efficiency and Continuous Energy Supply: Compared to terrestrial solar panels.

Reduction in Launch Costs: Due to advancements in reusable rockets like SpaceX's Starship.

International Partnerships: Potential partnerships and the benefits of a global approach to space-based solar power.

Addressing Space Debris: The importance of sustainable space operations.

Notable Quotes:

Martin Soltau: "Space-based solar power is not just about providing clean energy for Earth; it's about creating a sustainable and scalable energy source that can support humanity's future needs."

Additional Resources:

Learn more about Space Solar and their groundbreaking work: Space Solar

Explore the Fraser Nash study on space-based solar power: Fraser Nash Consultancy

International Space University (ISU): isunet.edu

Listen to Martin's music choice for the space travel playlist: Supertramp - "Take the Long Way Home"

Space Energy Initiative: Space Energy Initiative

 
This Episode is brought to you by SpaceWatchGlobal – your go to place for all things space.

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Transcript

SCP_109_Martin_Soltau

[00:00:00] Markus: Hello, everyone. This is Space Cafe Podcast, and I'm Markus. Today, we're exploring a potentially revolutionary concept, harnessing solar power from space. Not like the plants do, but a little different. As tech giants invest in energy hungry AI data centers, like the 100 billion investment by Microsoft and OpenAI, with Google and others following suit, we face a critical question Where will we find the power to fuel our digital future?

[00:00:52] The answer might lie beyond our atmosphere. Imagine vast solar arrays in Earth's orbit, capturing the sun's energy 24 7 and beaming it down to our planet. It sounds like science fiction, but it's rapidly, potentially becoming reality. Joining us Saltau from Space Solar, a company at the forefront 

[00:01:17] of this potentially groundbreaking technology, solar power works, its potential to solve our energy crisis, in action. We will explore the advantages over traditional solar power, the challenges ahead, and address key questions such as, is it viable?

[00:01:39] Is it safe? And how can it transform our energy landscape? Get ready for a journey to the final frontier of clean energy. Let's welcome Martin Saltau and launch into this electrifying discussion about powering our future from the stars. [00:02:00]

[00:02:07] Martin: , it started about six years ago. And I was leading the space business for Fraser Nash Consultancy. Um, but, but taking, I've always taken a keen energy, interest in energy and realized that the government wasn't Um, didn't have a credible plan for Net Zero and the government is taking it very seriously indeed in the UK.

[00:02:32] It's investing a lot in innovation. And I was, because of my interest in space, I was aware that space based solar power becoming more viable and managed to find a physicist in the government, took the idea to him, said, persuaded them that they really should look at doing an independent study. Uh, because it could have a significant component to help UK get to, to net zero.

[00:03:02] And they did indeed do that, they

[00:03:04] Markus: Were you taken seriously?

[00:03:06] Martin: Yes, I, I

[00:03:08] Markus: Talking about, talking about space, space, space, solar powers. I could imagine that talking to politicians and, and, and similar folks could, could be tricky. So how was the initial reaction?

[00:03:19] Martin: Yeah, no, that's very, very true. So the first, managed to find a closet physicist who was deputy director in the energy department, who had heard of space solar power. So he did take it seriously. We did a bit of work to convince the two of us that it was worth to the government letting us study. But, um, All credit to, to that individual, um, because, you know, it was a bit of a leap of faith for them, um, and they spent quarter of a million pounds doing, doing the study, which is now actually stood as a bit of an icon, um, globally.

[00:03:56] that, that study. So, um, it's really set, set the UK, [00:04:00] um, apart from much of the rest of the world in being prepared to consider this seriously. that they, they structured it in two parts. One was to say, is it technically viable? And secondly, is it economically viable?

[00:04:16] And, and then could it be developed in time to make a difference for net zero in the sort of 2040s, that sort of time frame and scaled up? Um, and what would the economic benefits be for the UK if we did go? Because any, any big investment has to have a good benefit to cost ratio. So those were the four questions the study had to answer.

[00:04:35] And, um, it, it came back with very, very positive conclusions and recommendations. So yeah, it was, um, it was, it was great, but it's all about finding the right people, as you kind of suggest, who are prepared to have an open mind.

[00:04:50] So that, that was the sort of start of it. And then we had this study that, that, you know, it's been done by, by the team at Fraser Nash. It was an independent study. Pretty objective study. Fraser Nash is a very reputable company. And, um, few of us who'd been involved in the study got together because we thought, well, the government's going to find it difficult to now take this forward and act on the recommendations because it's still a pretty out there concept.

[00:05:16] and so, and we felt given these really strong findings about the, uh, the affordability and the, the way in which space based autopower could make a really positive difference to, to Net Zero. We set up a sort of coalition of the willing called the Space Energy Initiative, and this was a collection of industry, academia, and then the government joined it.

[00:05:45] of serious companies across energy and space who were strongly supportive of the need to develop space based solar power and to, to make it possible to create the right ecosystem. [00:06:00] And part of the challenge for space based solar power is it does cut across these two sectors, energy and space, and it's primarily a, energy And of course, the energy sector, have never had anything to do with space and why would they, you know, it's expensive and difficult.

[00:06:17] And, so joining these two sectors up was really important. Um, and, and so that had a big, that had a big impact and the government, um, on board, started to get really supportive right across. We really managed to join up the, the space agency. The Energy Department, then called, um, Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy.

[00:06:44] the Department for Trade got very supportive. We've created a, uh, an international, um, strategy it, we formed a, uh, uh, an advisory board with some very senior CEO, uh, level people, government, uh, chaired by a Member of Parliament. And to give it the gravitas and reach. And so it's had a huge impact.

[00:07:10] We've had the, the, the, the space agency then put Space Based Solar Power into the National Space Strategy and the government led by the energy department, which is important, launched a small Well, they put six million pounds into an innovation program in space, solar power, into the key, key areas. So really groundbreaking because, um, few other governments were taking this joined up approach.

[00:07:40] I don't think any other governments worldwide have got such engagement with the energy department. 

[00:07:45] Markus: let's, Cut right to the chase. So, what is space based solar power?

[00:07:52] Martin: Well, it's It's not a new concept. It's been studied by it for years, and it's the of [00:08:00] putting your solar panels into space, where they can see the sun the whole time, and beaming the energy to Earth wirelessly. In this way, you can deliver 24 7, 365 energy at gigawatt scale. So like a large power station in size, each satellite.

[00:08:21] And it's all weather because, uh, if you pick the frequency right, can beam through heavy rain and clouds. Uh, and if you design the solar power satellite system right, uh, it can generate that energy all the time as the satellite goes around in the orbit. And this is what the energy set system needs.

[00:08:43] You, you've, you've got to have, if we're replacing, fossil fuels, which provide continuous reliable energy, and at the moment we've just got predominantly, um, intermittent weather dependent renewables, you need another form of continuous reliable, um, which can provide both baseload by this continuous and also be dispatchable, that it can cut in and out when the, when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isn't shining.

[00:09:13] And these things are what makes the grid both reliable and stable. And so it's a completely game changing technology. the other thing that's absolutely unique, part of the challenge of the energy transition is energy transmission. you've got these very low density Wind and solar, you need to transmit the power very often from, you know, hundreds of miles from where it's being generated out, in the UK's case, the North Sea, down to the south of the, building out that transmission system is hugely expensive and time consuming, takes many decades.

[00:09:53] space based solar power both the generation and the transmission. You can beam it to near where the energy is being [00:10:00] used. Um, it is really the, the ultimate form of, of, um, of energy.

[00:10:06] Markus: Would that, would that transmission technology, that microwave transition technology, also work on Earth, from power station to receiver? Just, just out of curiosity.

[00:10:18] Martin: it would. We're looking at that, uh, indeed. And beaming power from offshore wind farms to onshore to, avoid the, uh, undersea cables is, is, is one typical application.

[00:10:31] Markus: Let's start with the solar panels out there in space. So what you're essentially doing is build a large solar paneled farm out there in orbit. How far, how far in orbit are you? How far up there?

[00:10:47] Martin: that's right. Typically, it's geostationary, which is about 36, 000 kilometers, very, very high, above the earth. And that's where the appears stationary in the sky above the earth. So it's easy to imagine how that would beam down to a rectangular. It's always above that rectangular. Uniquely,

[00:11:08] Markus: What's the, the, the shape of that panel? How big is it? Is it like a football field?

[00:11:14] Martin: it's a little bigger than that. So the Solar Power Satellite is about 1. 7 kilometers in diameter, um, about football fields. So they're truly massive, but they are made of hundreds of thousands of very small modules, about the size of your coffee table. And so in this way, they are, Um, both resilient because you don't have any single points of failure.

[00:11:45] affordable because these modules are all made in gigafactories in, in the millions. so the unit production costs comes right down. And of course it allows you a route to scale this up very rapidly or [00:12:00] producing these things very, very quickly in very large volumes. And then the ground receiver, they're called a rectifying antenna or rectenna.

[00:12:09] Um, is a similar scale that, that's in, in, in the order of, um, several kilometers in diameter, between three and, and six kilometers in diameter. And, um, but it's a lightweight, sparse structure. So it's a, imagine a fishing net strung up on poles. These. Billions of small dipoles. So it's transparent to sunlight and rain.

[00:12:36] And although it takes a large area, actually you could do farming underneath it, or you could So you can have dual use of it, or in the UK, we're looking at offshore locations. Um, so, and it, it takes up, although that sounds huge, it takes up less than 10 percent of the of an equivalent wind farm producing the same amount of energy.

[00:12:58] So the energy density is much higher. about 40 percent of the size of a, an equivalent solar farm. So, yes, they're huge. The space segment is, has to be assembled in orbit. So, uh, we, um, by robotic assembly systems. Um, and again, we're, we're studying this at the moment and designing the, the, the modularization of this, this large structure and, and the robots that clip these things together.

[00:13:30] Um, But that's a, it's a, it's a, it's a robotic assembly task that's not complex in that in, in it's not trying to do a terribly complicated thing. It's clipping together things that are designed to be clipped together. in a very structured environment. Um, it's, it is, it is a, um, it is an important and key technology to make all this work.

[00:13:56] Markus: So is there, is there actual [00:14:00] testing in orbit, testing already going on or are you still on earth in the lab with all of this?

[00:14:06] Martin: Yeah, there, there is in orbit testing going on in America. so the US military have been testing some power beaming technology, um, over the last couple of years. Caltech recently concluded a year's development. Testing of, of their technology, power beaming and deployable structures and photovoltaics.

[00:14:26] Um, and then the Chinese and Japanese have got some programs where in the next two or three years, they're intending to put some more substantial, uh, demonstrators in, in orbit. Still small, they wouldn't be beaming power to Earth at any, any of usable scale, but it's nevertheless an important step. Um, Space Solar, my company has got a.

[00:14:47] plan, we'll, we'll be putting, uh, a, our, uh, small scale demonstrator in orbit, uh, within three years. So yes, it's moving very much from concepts and paper studies into hardware in the environment.

[00:15:04] Markus: How does one of your power stations out there in orbit compared to your regular nuclear power plant or a wind plant or? Water, water based plants.

[00:15:19] Martin: it, it, so in a number of ways, so it's a similar in terms of the name plate capacity, you know, it's about 1. 4 gigawatts of power, very equivalent to a nuclear power station. And it, of course, it provides this continuous power, which is similar to a nuclear power station. The big differences are that, um, it doesn't have any fuel to worry about, which is a finite resource.

[00:15:46] It doesn't produce any waste and, and it's scalable in the way that nuclear really struggles to be. So for nuclear, you typically at the UK, I think in many countries, it takes at least a decade in the planning for each power [00:16:00] station. And you probably have a decade to build this. Big, monolithic infrastructure.

[00:16:05] And then if you're lucky, you've got 1. 4 gigawatts at the end of that 20 year period. With Spacebase Solar Power, because of this modularity we talked about, we're going to be commissioning tens of gigawatts every year. So it's an order of magnitude more, um, fact, two orders of magnitude getting on four.

[00:16:27] So it's hugely scalable in the way that nuclear will struggle to be. Um, it's important that we have this mix of technologies. We need wind, solar, nuclear, but space based solar power makes the whole thing work.

[00:16:42] Markus: let's talk about the challenges that you're facing, and this is what research and development is all about. Because I guess, um, the solar panels we have on Earth, um, is it just making them space ready, space safe, or do you need a different kind of technology out there in space?

[00:17:02] Thank you very much. Tell

[00:17:04] Martin: similar. So they're, they are the same, Kind of technology, but, they're space rated, lightweighted, so mass is a very important thing. Getting the mass down, uh, is really important for the economics because you've got to launch everything into space and, and that's the, the cost of that is directly proportional to the mass.

[00:17:27] Um, but this is technology that's around today. It's typically three to five junction. gallium arsenide which are, have high performance, high efficiency. So about 38 percent efficiency compared to 22 percent for solar panels on, on terrestrial solar farms, and you, because they're, they're concentrating photovoltaic.

[00:17:55] So you need a much smaller area. of PV than you [00:18:00] do for the equivalent energy from a traditional, um, and, and this does a couple of things. I mean, it makes the, it helps address the, the low mass, it also helps in the environmental aspects because one of the challenges we've got with Net Zero is that the low density wind and solar and batteries, Take a huge, huge proportion, amount of stuff, material that you've got to mine and process to make into windmills.

[00:18:31] solar panels, batteries, um, per kilowatt hour of energy they generate. the impact on the mining sector is going to be absolutely huge. In fact, not, not practical. one of the real structural challenges at Xero. So having photovoltaics, which has, you know, has a two possibly three orders of magnitude less PV for the amount of energy that we're producing is, um, is really important for both the economics and environmental. We're not, don't require any new breakthroughs in material science. so, the, the PV is, is already established, the, the, the robotics, the structures, um, the, these are all today's technology. a big.

[00:19:24] engineering integration but it's not trying to, um, develop new stuff that doesn't exist yet.

[00:19:31] Markus: It's, it's a little bit, but it's not too much rocket science anymore.

[00:19:37] Martin: Well, it's getting there. Exactly. Exactly. It's space is hard, but it is, it is hard, but it's, um, it's doable.

[00:19:44] Markus: Tell me, um, about the transfer of that energy down to earth. what is microwave, um, and is it comparable to laser? Is it the death star laser and [00:20:00] anything in its, um, in its path? Is it? Is burnt and shredded, or how does that work down on earth?

[00:20:07] Martin: Yeah, no, it's a very, very important thing. So No, it's not a, it's not laser, it's microwave, um, and it's low Yes, um, just for this very reason that it, it's safe. it all starts, the design of the system start by making sure that the, the intensity of the microwaves at the birth of the rectenna, at the edge of the rectenna is, Below the, um, the standard regular, the regulation limits here for indefinite public exposure.

[00:20:39] So these things are not going to, um, they're far too low intensity to, do any, any damage to flora and fauna and wildlife. Um, it's safe for aviation. Uh, and, um, and, and indeed we look, we're working very closely with the UK regulators, uh, on, on, on the, both the safety, environmental, and all the other aspects of regulation that's, that's needed for this.

[00:21:06] regulations are,

[00:21:07] Markus: what happens if my beloved herd of sheep, um, crossed the path of that, microwave,

[00:21:15] um, energy beam? they think, oh, there's a very slightly warmer patch here. And, um, yeah, this is right. And so. probably find them all kind of migrating into the, into the beam. There was a famous, um, done by NASA a few decades ago now, and it was looking at, uh, Starlings and the effect of microwave radiation.

[00:21:40] Martin: the, the very center of the beam, you've got the peak of the intensity, it was about 230 watts per square meter. And they, they, Put these mic, these starlings in into a pen with microwave radiation, beamed at them for, for months and months and looking at them. And one morning the keeper came out and um, to check them and [00:22:00] he couldn't find them and he thought, oh my goodness, they've all been vaporized.

[00:22:04] And then he found wall huddled up in the horn of the microwave transmitter just keeping warm 'cause it was a particularly cold morning. So yeah, there have been some, some real world studies looking at the effects of microwaves. And so it's, we believe that it's, it's going to be completely safe for flora and fauna.

[00:22:24] Um, it, we, we do need to repeat these studies and, and because time has moved on and, and regulations and standards have changed. Um, but it's, it's, it's, it, the whole thing is designed. to be, to be viable, to be regulation, to be, to be regulated within today's regulations. We're not looking for, dreaming up new, new, new regulations to, um, make these, make these things work.

[00:22:54] Markus: Is that temperature difference now then converted into, back into, usable energy, like, I don't know, is it, what is it converted into? Electricity, or is it driving a steam engine, or how does that work?

[00:23:13] Martin: Yes, the, these rectennas are, uh, convert the microwave back straight back into DC electricity. And then that's fed through Okay, To create AC straight into the grid. The efficiency of that is very high. It's 90%. And it's, say, these little dipoles that just, if you them the right length, they resonate with the microwave at the right frequency and they convert it back into electricity very efficiently.

[00:23:46] Markus: all this sounds almost too good to be true. So where is the catch? Where's the challenge? Why is not every country doing this because there is an unlimited amount of solar energy out there in space. It's almost like [00:24:00] fusion energy, but maybe a lot easier to accomplish. So where's the catch?

[00:24:06] Martin: Exactly right. The amount of energy these systems can generate, you know, a solar panel in space generates 13 times the amount of solar power that the same panel on Earth generates. And why it's not been a thing to date is that, uh, a number of reasons, but predominantly, until the last eight or nine years, the cost of space launch has been prohibitive.

[00:24:33] It's been about 20, 000 per kilogram, and the advent of reusable rockets, that's come down to, today's price is about 2, 000 per kilogram, and we've just watched with awe the fourth flight of the SpaceX Starship,

[00:24:51] Markus: Starship.

[00:24:52] Martin: and that's going to bring the cost down by another order of magnitude. So, this is the first.

[00:24:59] Reason why space based solar power hasn't been a thing to date, but now will be very rapidly. Um, there are other reasons as well, I think. I think it's a combination of technology maturing. The latest designs of solar power satellite with this high modularity are much more affordable. the Technology in photovoltaics has advanced in robotics.

[00:25:25] And then finally, the societal need has got ever greater. People have really realized that actually we can't get to net zero, uh, and, and with affordably and reliably with wind and solar and batteries, and that we do need to look to these things. So it's this, everything in these, these big disruptive times.

[00:25:45] Events that happen in the world and everything has come together at the right time.

[00:25:53] Markus: What's your timeframe to making this a [00:26:00] realistic energy source that the government will buy into? I mean, like they're all, they're already pre financing

[00:26:09] parts, are they?

[00:26:11] Martin: They, they are, they're Okay. refinancing parts in, in, in large part because of this, this need partly because it's a no regrets investment for them. The spin off benefits are going to be huge anyway. The Fraser Nash study showed that. Our timescale is a six year engineering development program to get to a substantial proof of concept in space.

[00:26:37] So this is beaming about a megawatt of power, the net megawatt you'll receive on Earth. It's a large satellite delivered in a single launch. that will be, um, that's the time, and the government have said that they'll be coming in very strongly with. They're power off tech agreements, they're contracts for difference here in the UK.

[00:26:58] Um, the big oil and gas companies, Shell and BP and Eninext and others have said that they'll be really coming in strongly at that point. It's typically the when, you know, when they see technology demonstrated at scale in the environment that they, they, they come in and then accelerate it and industrialize it.

[00:27:19] that's the, the, the,

[00:27:20] Markus: where do you get the solar panels from? Are they built in, in the UK or where do you get them from?

[00:27:26] Martin: um, Certainly the UK has got some really, really strong technology here on in advanced multi junction solar panels and in the RF circuitry and components and robotics. It's, I've, I hope that The government will be ambitious and, and really start funding this at scale, in which case it's all about getting the economic benefit in the country.

[00:27:56] but they're very much looking for partners as well. And, and, and in [00:28:00] the end, Sure. think where this gets built will very much depend on who's financing it. And you can imagine when Of course. partners, partners come in, want localization of jobs. In, in those countries,

[00:28:16] Markus: Of course. imagine you are the mastermind with your company, you build, um, a solar farm. So you're launching with your first, with the first Starship launch, you're packing all your solar panels on the Starship and you have your one megawatt.

[00:28:35] facility in orbit, the, the solar panels were built by a partner in a different country, maybe around the globe, somewhere else, would it be possible to transfer that microwave beam to split it and bring half of the beam to your partner, to its, uh, to his, um, ground station, and then you consume the rest of the energy or is the beam distributable?

[00:29:04] Martin: um, e each, it's distributable in time. So you, you can beam to one place at a time. And so you could, and we've looked at this say with the Middle East for example, where their energy huh. is very, very cheap 'cause they've got cheap solar, but at nighttime it's insanely expensive. Um, and so you could be beaming to the Middle East.

[00:29:29] night time when they need the energy and then in the daytime beam it to wet rainy northern Europe. And so there are some huh. That's interesting. that work really, really well. Yeah. No, it's a it's a really Very interesting. thing. And, and, um, actually space solo's got a very unique design of solar power satellite called Cassiopeia.

[00:29:54] And this can use, um, highly elliptical orbits. So these are, [00:30:00] um, with the, the top of the orbit, the apogee is, is a lot lower than geo, um, be typically 8, 000 kilometers, not 36, 000. And the size of the satellite in proportion to the distance away. You've got to have the same sort of relationship to get your, keep your tight beam.

[00:30:18] so rather uniquely, we can, we can develop, um, and field much smaller products. And you were talking about why space based solar power hasn't hitherto been a thing. And actually another reason is that all the, the previous designs were all in geostationary And they had to be very large. and therefore very expensive.

[00:30:42] And if your first of a kind is, costs billions of dollars, it's incredibly difficult to persuade, um, the, the finance sector to, to, to fund that. So that's, that was another, this, it's, this has been a real breakthrough. We've got a very investable roadmap. And you have these in these highly elliptical orbits, how they work is, um, they work perfectly in, in constellations of three or four satellites beaming to three or four rectangles.

[00:31:11] Broadly equi spaced in longitude around the world, and so you can get these energy partnerships. You could think of the UK and, um, Canada and Japan, for example, being in an energy partnership.

[00:31:24] Markus: Could it also be a space power source for requirements in space? So for example, I don't know, um, refueling station for constellations, no, constellations don't need that. Maybe they, they have their own sources, but what are business models out there for space?

[00:31:47] Martin: I think the near term one is, is Power for the Moon. Uh, so, America and others have got ambitious Programs to go back to the Moon to [00:32:00] stay there to have research and possibly mining and facilities and operations on the Moon and of course that's all going to need a lot of power. And the Moon has a two week night time, so incredibly difficult to Um, think of how you, how you do that.

[00:32:22] You can't just do that with solar panels, um, and batteries. So it's either nuclear or space based solar power. 

[00:32:30] Markus: When do you think your technology becomes viable in a way that you're Energy can readily be consumed on earth. So when do you think that will happen?

[00:32:43] Martin: following on from our six year engineering development, we've then got, um, we're, we're scaling that up. And by year nine, which is about 2032. We'll have our kite product, which is a 180 megawatt system commercial power at very competitive cost of energy. And three years later, we'll have scaled it up Can you Can you give us a comparison? A hundred eighty megawatt compares to what on earth? Like what's, what's a nuclear power

[00:33:16] Markus: plant in output? yes, I mean, 180 megawatts is a reasonable sized power station. It's, it's, um,

[00:33:23] Okay.

[00:33:24] Martin: so it's, it's also a good quanta of energy in the, in the energy, um, operations field. They don't actually like huge quantas of power. If you have one, you know, two gigawatts or something, and that goes offline, it's really tough for the grid to cope with a loss of that balance it.

[00:33:47] So actually they tend to prefer slightly smaller quantas. power stations, um, which makes it easier to balance the whole thing. But yeah, 180, 180 megawatts is a, is a, is a decent amount of power, [00:34:00] um, power about 100, 000 homes. So it's, it's, and that's, that's our kite product. That's in a highly elliptical orbit, again, in this sort of constellation of three or four satellites delivering power to around the globe.

[00:34:14] And then we've got our, our geostationary Or geosynchronous product called Eagle, and that's 1. 4 gigawatts of power. Um, so that's the, uh, the, the big daddy. Uh, and, and, but they're all, all of them use the identical modules. So going right back to our, our, our Neo6. Product, which is a proof of concept, we'll have pretty much exactly the same modules.

[00:34:42] so scaling it up is just a case of turning the handle on the factory and producing more and then building these things out. It's not some new start again design, which is why we're able to these systems up so quickly.

[00:35:00] Markus: There's a, a fine line to walk when it comes to bringing evermore Um, stuff out there into orbit, uh, no matter where, um, of course, I'm trying to, uh, uh, reference the space debris issue. It, that is a growing, growing issue. And now with constellations, um, being built by, Telecoms, or at least that are going to be built by telecoms and nations and whatnot, and military.

[00:35:36] Now we have plans for power plants in space. So how does all this work? Is this an issue for you also?

[00:35:46] Martin: It's a, it's a very important issue for everyone using space, well, the whole part of the Earth really, because we've got to um, make sure that we can continue to access for all, all countries. [00:36:00] We, based solar power doesn't use the low orbits where most of the debris So in terms of our operations, it's not really affected.

[00:36:10] What we're very focused on is not creating more debris, we assemble these things and operate them and them. And indeed, I think it goes further than that. We've got to clean up the debris that's there, but that's a very expensive thing to do. And there's no market at the moment for anybody to go and do that.

[00:36:33] Thanks. Uh, and what space based solar power does is provides this huge demand driver for all of the sustainability activities we want to do in space. assembling large structures in space is a, is a key that we need to get good at. And you only get good at that if you practice it regularly, like once a week, not once every two years.

[00:36:59] very much. And Space Solar Power, which is going to be funded very much by the, the energy sector, um, with, with huge budgets and huge societal need, will provide us this, with this, this ability to practice and get really good at assembling in space, doing, um, debris removal. And so you can see that suddenly we'll, we'll have generated, we'll have developed the technology and the capability to do that.

[00:37:29] solve the debris problems to be servicing satellites, assembling in orbit, and, and behaving in space in a much more sustainable way. But it can't happen without this, I say, this demand driver to, um, to, pay for it and, and get good at it. And so I think space solar power has a, a huge role to play, not only in just providing energy.

[00:37:57] Um, for all of us here on earth, [00:38:00] but in, in helping to clear up space and make that a sustainable, place as well.

[00:38:07] Markus: So you're sort of providing the energy source for future businesses. Uh, so your, your role is to provide the power plug, so to say, and say, Hey, we got the energy up here and we're waiting, we're happily waiting for. Arrive. Um, either in space debris removal or large scale orbital structures, factories, scientific laboratories or whatnot.

[00:38:37] Martin: Um, yeah, yes, we're not just powering the things that provide debris removal. We're, we're creating the ability to do proximity and rendezvous operations really regularly and reliably and affordably, and so that we can, we'll have developed the technology so that. We can collectively, um, S deorbit debris and clean up space in a, in a way that we, we just can't do at the moment with any, any sort of, because it, partly because it's going too slow.

[00:39:12] It's all just government research grants and we are looking to sort of remove one piece of debris every, every couple of years. Well, you never, never solve the problem like that. We've gotta be doing it much more regularly. So we haven't yet got the, the technology haven't got the economics or the market to, to.

[00:39:30] and the incentives to drive that. That's what I really mean, is this is going to absolutely transform the, um, the, the, uh, economy and market, uh, for these things, which is, is, is going to be solving these two problems, clean energy on earth and making space sustainable.

[00:39:51] Markus: I could imagine that, um. Your company is not the only one on earth that is trying to, to get into, into that [00:40:00] field. So is, is every country pursuing similar plans or is this still so niche that you are one amongst a very few who do it? On a global scale,

[00:40:14] Martin: There's a number of countries, so, uh, I think I'd point to China and Japan, Possibly leading the way here, they've got some policy led programs with long-term plans, uh, to and commercialize space-based solar power. I think they probably, their programs are likely to, particularly the Chinese, like likely to put something up there that's beaming power.

[00:40:47] Um, first, Americans have got some really interesting programs, but mainly military led, uh, looking at how for deployed operations, for the, for the military. So less of a focus on clean energy for Earth. Um, Caltech's got their research program, I think. And then there's a number of, number of interesting startup companies who are Developing some of the early technology.

[00:41:16] And I think where, where we differentiated it with space solar in the UK is that, we've got the very strong support of a major government and particularly the energy department of that government. Um, we've got a world leading Solar Power Satellite Design and we've got some, an incredible team, across power beaming, robotics, um, manufacturing, uh, and, and so I think we've got a really credible team.

[00:41:48] ready program that the government's, um, being very supportive of. So hopefully this will, because I'm a strong believer in free market and competition and things, um, as a driver of [00:42:00] innovation, um, and, and I, I hope that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, Quite quickly, other governments will start to follow the lead of the UK and China and Japan and, and, um, and, and it will encourage innovation and other companies to, you know, get, get going.

[00:42:20] Markus: what are the challenges in all of this? Because as you mentioned, most of the technology that you need is available. Most of the engineering is available because there is different sources in different places that have used parts of The technology in different fields. So where is the actual challenge for you?

[00:42:47] And where's the tricky part, because now you've got Starship almost ready to get your stuff up into orbit. Then the solar panels, I guess there is some experience on earth. Then a microwave is nothing new. So still, it's a tricky thing. And what is the tricky thing to you? What keeps you awake?

[00:43:11] Martin: But At night? yes, there are a number of things. Um, so that. challenges, probably just the sheer scale of this system in space. We've never done anything like this before, um, collectively. Uh, and so assembling a very, very large structure in space is going, is a big challenge in its own right. Um, we've, we can see pathways to, to do this quite, quite feasibly, but it nevertheless, it's something that hasn't been done before.

[00:43:42] The power beaming. Um, has got to be, we've demonstrated this at small scale. We have a which we've, um, which was on Sky News the other day. and demonstrating the ability to steer the beam through 360 degrees. [00:44:00] The, key thing here is as we scale this up, um, making sure that the beam form is really, really tight, minimal side lobes, So all of the energy is going into the beam and we can steer it and control it.

[00:44:22] And what the nice thing about this is, Sometimes when you scale things up in engineering, they get worse. This is a, this is an area where you scale it up and it gets much, much better. The, the, the, the, the larger the beam, the more, the more, um, little antenna you have in the, in the transmitter, tighter the beam, the more formed it is.

[00:44:44] And we've, we've done simulations here to show that this is, this is going all in the right direction. Um, so that's the second challenge. I think then is a, a timescale challenge. So we need regulation for the responsible and sustainable. development and operation of these systems in space, um, for allocation of the spectrum we're going to use.

[00:45:09] It's a very, very crowded spectrum and that takes, you know, a decade or more to, to, to negotiate these, these things with the International Telecoms Union. But here again, the government have been great in the UK. They're leading conversations in the ITU. We've got a regulation forum. Uh, for space based solar power, um, with all of the regulators here in the UK, the Space Agency, Ofcom, the Department for Transport, the Civil Aviation Authority.

[00:45:36] and in fact, this week, uh, there's a meeting of the relevant body in, in, um, in Geneva, and they're, they're, they're talking about space based solar power and power beaming. Uh, so that's the second thing, just timescale. And I think the third thing I'd point to is. the financing. So I've described our roadmap where we're really not getting the serious revenues much before year [00:46:00] nine that's a long time for private equity.

[00:46:04] Markus: Yes. Mm-Hmm? to, take a Pack it up. role in the early days it needs sort of philanthropy, um, People who really want to make a big difference coming in and help making this possible in the early days. And of course, as a, as a, as an investment, it's, um, it's, it's an incredibly and rewarding thing, creating a new, source of clean energy to really help humanity.

[00:46:37] Martin: Um, yes, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, um, you know, it is, it is a longer time frame, but it's, it really is a no, no, regrets investment because of all the spinoffs along the way. those are the, the three top ones. And then I think I'd, um, highlight the importance of The public license to operate, the public support, for a technology that involves power beaming that most of the public aren't really yet aware of.

[00:47:09] and we can look to other technologies, nuclear is an obvious one, but here in the UK fracking, uh, didn't do so well. Mm and, and, is, is bad. So it's about having a really, really good engagement with the public so that can ask questions, engage, feel that they're involved in the discussion about how we mm technology.

[00:47:41] And so I've been doing quite a bit of that. Um, the, the Royal Society here. did a very interesting space perspective, and they the polling agency Ipsos to find 100, well over 100 members of the public, who then had a two day [00:48:00] workshop, each of them, all around the country, um, and, um, about what space means to them.

[00:48:08] what they thought about what space was and our use of space and the challenges and opportunities. Um, and one of the vignettes was Space Based Solar Power, which I was as just an expert in space, and I was really impressed firstly, how get that we can't get to net zero with just wind and solar.

[00:48:30] They, they They very mm. understand we, we need more capable energy technologies. then when they understood how this works and why it's safe, um, it was a really positive conversation. had other similar conversations through engagement with the media. We've had a lot of coverage on the mainstream media, Sky, the BBC, and the broad, and the broadsheets, and Times, and Telegraph, and forth.

[00:48:59] The most of the most of the challenges there tend to come from people who haven't an opportunity to really explore it in depth and just feel that it's science fiction. So those are the sort of key challenges that keep us awake at night.

[00:49:20] Markus: but I could imagine that one of the major challenges will be how to get people like environmental groups on board. Cause I could just remember the days of, uh, 5G, you mentioned 5G or, or even before that, mean, like there's so much, there's so much wigwam going on around what cell phone frequencies do and don't do.

[00:49:50] And like that, the sheer. Temperature emitted by smartphones could also already be an issue to our health. [00:50:00] Um, so I could imagine that this is pretty much in the vicinity of, of your technology. Um, so maybe a good marketing department, um, market. No, I, I shouldn't say marketing. That's, that's the wrong term because marketing usually.

[00:50:17] Is sometimes affiliated or connected to something where someone wants to sell you something that you may not need. But, um, so it should be something around more education or, um, yeah, education is maybe the right thing, um, to say, not marketing.

[00:50:38] Martin: think partly, partly education and partly feeling that people are empowered, that they, they have a say.

[00:50:45] Markus: Yes,

[00:50:46] yes, we've got some huge advantages over things like 5G and tracking. So firstly, and of course you don't want to one environmental problem and create another one on the way. Um, carbon footprint of space based solar power, there was an independent study done by the University of Strathclyde, and it's about half that of terrestrial solar.

[00:51:09] Martin: It's really low, and with a really strong pathway to reduce that a lot further. It's about 24 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour. secondly, we're not going to have any large scale infrastructure in people's backyards. This was one of the problems with fracking, I think. these rectangles, They're gonna be offshore in, in, in the uk.

[00:51:31] Um, in, in, in more sparsely complicated pla populated countries. They could be on shore, but again, they have dual use, so you could have sort of arable farming underneath them. So there's really good use of the land. Um, and then there are clear pathways to the sort of safety and, and, and so forth. So this is, again, it's, it's, we are not trying to create new regulations.

[00:51:57] We're, we're. We're [00:52:00] designing this around existing safety regulations for microwave.

[00:52:07] But it So where does, um, challenge, you know, it is important still and we're doing, yeah, yeah. The University of Bristol got some really good public outreach done. It's got to be done in a very structured way. If you ask questions the wrong way, or, you know, it can be counterproductive. So it is important to be engaged seriously in things.

[00:52:28] But, um, yeah, I think rapidly we're, we've got some really positive press in the, with, with, with the media. And it's, as I say, largely the comments are people, serious people ask questions. And when you engage with them and show them, we've got frequently asked questions on, on our, on our website. We've, we've been, we've been at pains over the last three or four years talk to the real experts.

[00:53:00] The environmental scientists, the chief scientific advisors, the, um, Atmospheric Scientists. And, um, we've had, we've all of their thoughts and feedback and things into our development plans and things. But we've found no showstoppers at all for this, indeed, quite the reverse. It's looking really, really positive from an environmental impact perspective.

[00:53:28] Markus: How competitive, um, on the market will your, will your energy be? So just for example, I just, uh, the other day I, I changed my. Electricity provider. We have that. I don't know. I'm sure you have that also in the UK. You go to a website and you get all the different providers and you pick the one you think is the optimal for you.

[00:53:55] And it's an online thing. It takes five minutes and then you have [00:54:00] your new provider. So do you think you would be amongst those providers competing against I don't know, wind farms and whatnot.

[00:54:09] Martin: Yes, it's the again, the independent study done by Fraser Nash that this could actually be the cheapest form of renewable energy. It's very interesting. I don't know about Austria, in the UK, there's a whole sort of subsidy regime. So the government have got at least three major sort of subsidy Um, um, systems, including contracts for difference and feed in tariffs and obligation certificates and things.

[00:54:41] And they, they spend a fortune, many, billions of pounds every year on these subsidies to keep the price of, which, which obviously the energy, you know, we, we all pay for as taxpayers, um, in our energy bills. Um, but the headline cost of the. Wind and solar is slightly, somewhat disguised, um, because they have these, um, subsidies.

[00:55:07] We, we're not aiming for subsidies. Um, the, the early systems might be more expensive in Quarit, but the, the economic projections are that space based solar power will be, um, cheaper, cheaper than, than the wind and solar. It's about, um, 34 per megawatt hour. And that's, that's an incredibly competitive price.

[00:55:30] And of course, that is and dispatchable power, which is high value. So wind and solar, if they're

[00:55:37] Markus: Can you compare that, what you just mentioned, and that 34, uh, can you compare that to other energy sources?

[00:55:44] Martin: Yes, indeed. I mean, wind and solar are about sort of 40 to 60 in the government's projections, but actually at the moment they're receiving subsidies up into the sort of 100, well over 100 pounds per megawatt hour, um, for, for many of these [00:56:00] schemes. Particularly, you know, things like floating offshore wind are going to be incredibly expensive early on.

[00:56:06] over 200 pounds per megawatt hour, I think. Um, nuclear is well over 100 pounds per megawatt hour, that may fall a bit with modular, small modular reactors, we'll have to see, but space solar power is going to be about a third of the cost of those sorts of technologies. Um, and of course, it's got these, um, other, um, The problem with wind and solar is the headline cost isn't the whole story you need other forces and sources of backup.

[00:56:37] You need to overbuild wind and solar because you hope that it's going to be windy or sunny somewhere. so the whole cost and of course the grid infrastructure that you need to join up these low density renewables is very expensive. And none of that gets factored into this. Levelized cost of electricity for these, you know, the headline cost of these.

[00:56:57] So-called cheap renewables. none of which we, we will need. So, the, the, the real cost of space-based solar power is, is, um, is, is very low indeed and very, very competitive with the cheapest of the renewables.

[00:57:13] Markus: It seems like, um, globally we're on an exponential scale in anything we do. Um, producing, Um, problems for ourselves and for the planet, but at the same time, uh, also producing new or inventing new technologies, um, that require, uh, almost next to infinite amounts of, of electricity, um, in the future. So do you think we can, we can, um, make it and be able to provide as Enough energy, enough electricity to, to feed our growing hunger.

[00:57:53] Um, so what's your best guess here?

[00:57:55] Martin: Yeah, well, I'm, firstly, I'm hugely optimistic, but to [00:58:00] set some context to your question, decarbonisation of heat and transport, the huge growth in AI and data centres and the sort of power hungry things, robotics, means that the, globally, our electricity demand is going to possibly.

[00:58:24] Possibly more than travel, in really quite a short time. So that's an insane challenge. There's no way we can build wind and solar, even if we had some magical storage to make that all work. And this is the real excitement about space based solar power, because of this modularity. Once the development is completed, we can be commissioning Tens of gigawatts of capacity per year to meet that huge and growing demand.

[00:58:56] Um, We can't think of space based solar power as doing everything. We've got to, we always have to have a mix of technologies. Of course. wind, solar, nuclear, hydro, and all the rest of these things. But because it's got such attractive it really, we've, our assessment is that it will at least take 20 percent of global electricity.

[00:59:23] as a market share. So it's going to become a major player and of course could grow more than that. But it is, your question goes to the heart of one of the real challenges for Net Zero, that just the sheer pace of our clean energy technology, it's really, really challenging and I mean, like for not possible.

[00:59:49] Yeah.

[00:59:51] Markus: just imagine the, the other day I heard that Microsoft and OpenAI are building [01:00:00] a data center, um, that consumes the equivalent of, um, New York City's electricity. Um, it's a data center, an investment of a hundred billion dollars. So, and this is just one. So of course, um, it's, it's not hard to, to guess what Google and other players will be making if someone does that and what Chinese players will be doing.

[01:00:33] So this is the challenge. So we are sort of. We're creating entire cities, mega cities of energy requirements, energy need on a yearly, maybe yearly basis or more than that. And that's, that's the challenge. That's the challenge. And then maybe, and this could be, this could be the next challenge we're facing. The whole blockchain thing that hasn't found its own. Killer application yet, maybe finding its killer application with artificial intelligence and, and And technologies that gravitate around that technology. So then crypto comes online on a massive scale and we, and we already have that artificial intelligence explosion going on.

[01:01:35] So this is, this is a challenge that's unfathomable, how we can mitigate that hunger and still that thirst. Um, so as, as you just mentioned, um, space based. Solar power is a part of the mix, but without it, I think there's no way we can, we can, [01:02:00] we can go anywhere because we wouldn't need fusion technology, but fusion technology is not ready yet.

[01:02:06] And maybe not be ready in the next decades to come. 

[01:02:10] Martin: I think it's, you know, I think, agree, I think you've put your finger on one of the big structural challenges for the whole energy transition. one of the reasons we can't build out quickly enough is that The low density renewables, wind, solar, batteries, take insane amounts of stuff, mining and minerals and things.

[01:02:35] the, you've got to accelerate mining between 20 and 70 times, 2, 000 to 7, 000 percent more than we do now today different minerals. And, uh, In an industry where a five, five percent increase is a huge, huge thing, let alone, you know, 7, 000%. so, and a mine takes typically 16 years to open from scratch.

[01:03:01] So this is not gonna happen in, in any, any time soon. It's just an illusion. Um, we've gotta find better and more efficient ways. And of course, mining is very, you know, environmentally challenging. It. Typically mines are in countries that may not be, uh, geopolitically, um, well aligned and it's, it's often refined in other countries, uh, particularly China.

[01:03:23] And, uh, we, so, um. It's a, it's a big structural challenge. And I wonder if the IEA actually underestimates the growth of, um, energy demand when you talk about these huge data centers and AI requirements. Um, because, um, we're certainly, we're engaging with, with some of the data center operators, the big ones, Amazon, Google, and Co, and, um, secure, reliable energy is their primary challenge.? This is very much going to be an international venture. [01:04:00] Developing a transformative, disruptive new technology like this to be an international thing. There's some, some great initiatives all around the world, um, mentioned European Space Agency, um, these other big global players, China in Asia and America, but, but I, and the, and the UK government's very much looking to, to lead that.

[01:04:23] But I think it's, that's one thing, it's got to be an, an international venture. I think that the other thing is to say, I think probably from your point of view, picked up from everything I've been saying is that this is going to happen and much quicker than people think. it, it does need strong political will.

[01:04:40] It needs bold, visionary people to help with the financing of it. It needs governments and Private finance to come together and things. So there's a, there's a number of things that have to happen, but this, this is going to, this is going to happen. And it, for people that don't follow the space sector, it'll, it'll be suddenly all upon us and they'll think, where did this come from?

[01:05:06] You know, I'd never heard of it before. And suddenly it's got this amazing thing. So just some thoughts there.

[01:05:13] Markus: For, uh, Visionary and bold investors. Where, where would you go? Where is boldness still a thing?

[01:05:22] Martin: I think there's some say Europe, Europe, Europe may not be the place, but is it? So, so where, where would you go? Where do you go for bold investments? Hmm.

[01:05:34] Well, I mean, there are some great philanthropic funds, Bezos Earth Fund, um, Breakthrough Energy Ventures, um, things, things, things like this. Um, there, there are many, um, very, very wealthy, uh, individuals there who want, out there who want to make a difference, um, and, and want to have a real impact and do something [01:06:00] really, really good.

[01:06:00] And so it's those sorts of. and individuals that I think are going to make a difference. Caltech had a great, um, they were a hundred million dollars from a very high net worth who just wanted to see this happen. And so I think got a really important role to play. Um, as I say, we've, we've put a lot of effort into our financing roadmap, as well as our technology and development plan.

[01:06:31] Um, it's not a crazy amount of money. know, to get to that tipping point at year six, we're talking about 800 million. The To put that into context, the statistic I like to trot out is that in the two years of the pandemic, the government spent 10 billion pounds that it wrote off in, in personal protective equipment, PPE, that was not used or unusable. So, this Hmm. this is financeable. If we really have the political will, we've certainly got the societal need.

[01:07:09] Markus: What speaks against it from a political perspective?

[01:07:15] Martin: Um, I don't think anything speaks against it. I think it's about getting people be bold. Um, and we've had some great, um, Politicians here in the UK, sadly, we're just about to, um, uh, have an election and, uh, they're probably all, um, have the next lot in to, um, but, but I think it does need, it does need individuals to, to say, we're going to do this.

[01:07:46] We're going to, it does need things to be done differently. So the, typically the civil servants are understandably cautious. They have their and rules and things, but it, the politicians, um, [01:08:00] can direct that, that, that we should, should, should do this. Um, and I think the UK politicians have been great.

[01:08:06] The, um, the energy secretary, um, in particular, the, the, the, the, um, top of the space agency here, that they've been speaking out very supportively. It does take time for any, um, I mean, we've been, I suppose, really having these conversations at the top of government for the last It does take time for people to get confident talking about something that not long ago was, a bit of a giggle factor potentially.

[01:08:37] But we've got, we've got well beyond that now. So, yeah, I don't, I think there's a, it comes back to this is a no regrets investment. And so they can't be. They can't be ridiculed for making a bold decision. This is public money, so we've got to spend it wisely. It's a very strong benefit to cost ratio.

[01:09:00] Markus: Martin, if people want to learn more about space solar and stay in touch, where would they go? Or send over some money, some funding?

[01:09:13] Martin: Yeah, well, um, so all our contact details are on our website. Spacesolar. co. uk People are very, very welcome to contact, contact me. And it'd be great to hear from anybody who wants to get involved in, in, in multiple ways. We, we haven't started recruiting yet. We've had over 400 applicants. That's, that's how excited this has got people.

[01:09:40] And we've got some great investor conversations yet. Um,

[01:09:44] Markus: What are you looking for, um, the most, um, aside from funding, um, so when it comes to talent, maybe?

[01:09:51] Martin: we're looking for, for, for, for partners who share the vision. Um, certainly engineering [01:10:00] talent in. And all of the kind of space and energy but it's not just engineering. It's the, these, this is going to spawn new industries. and everyone is going to get involved. You know, there's, we need to have, um, there's already, we've got some, some, the, the regulators really excited about this.

[01:10:24] The, the legal profession, uh, clearly engineering is, Mm. is, is, is central to, to this. think the finance sector have got financial engineering tools that they can about to make this possible and things. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. some really exciting new partnerships forming both between nations and between public and private sector.

[01:10:48] Um, It will disrupt the energy sector as well, so there'll be, the energy companies themselves will have different roles they can play in the value chain. if you think about this as, They've got this rectenna, which is arguably where the energy is generated, but then you've got this big space component.

[01:11:08] Um, Sure. these systems to be interoperable. So huge opportunities to get involved. And we've been with, we've got some really exciting conversations going on, but very happy to share, um, and have a conversation if anybody wants to get in touch. And just, sorry. The other thing to say is Fantastic. Mm hmm. Ha a, $10 billion fund fundraiser at the moment, so yes, please, please do get in touch if you'd like to be part of that

[01:11:36] Markus: ha ha. Fantastic. Um, Martin, now to my last two questions. Question number one, if, um, At some point when you're ready to, to assemble your solar panels up there in space and the call came and someone asked, Hey, um, we, um, we need, um, a [01:12:00] welder, an in situ welder, um, Martin, we want you, would you be ready to travel into orbit?

[01:12:07] Would you be a space person ready to put on a spacesuit?

[01:12:12] Martin: and I'm always up for a challenge um, I, I, I ride a motorcycle, so I'm quite happy a helmet on. Yeah, I'd be, um, yeah, I'm too old to go into space probably, but, um, uh, yeah, no, I think, I think it's hugely exciting. I mean, the thing about space solar power is we, because of the economics of this, we don't, we don't intend to use astronauts at all.

[01:12:40] there might be one or two.

[01:12:42] Markus: Yes.

[01:12:43] Martin: A little bit of support in the early, early development, but, uh, yeah. No, I, I, I've no, I've no desire to go to Mars or the moon or anything. Um, and, um, because I think the getting humanity to be a multi planetary species, I think really is going to require us to find other habitable worlds.

[01:13:11] Thanks. And that means a different star system. And that means interstellar travel, which is a little bit beyond us at the moment. Um, so I, I'm, I'm not, I'm not, um, think there will be settlements on the moon, but they won't be, they wouldn't be much more than Antarctic research stations or, Exactly. Spending your life in a, in a trailer park.

[01:13:44] Yeah,

[01:13:45] Markus: That's in fact, what's what, what to expect. So you're saying that this is a stepping stone to something a lot larger and the stepping stones are not really your cup of tea. [01:14:00] So to say you'd be ready to go to a different star system and set up shop on a habitable second earth like planet, right?

[01:14:10] Martin: That'd be quite cool, wouldn't it? If you could get there in the blink of an eye, it would be, uh, without, uh, too much pain, that would be, uh, that would be cool. yeah, space Wouldn't, uh, you know, for, for Earth, really. That's what we're really focused on.

[01:14:27] Markus: could microwave be used as a propellant for space travel?

[01:14:33] Martin: Well, the, that's an interesting question. So when you beam the microwave, uh, at 1. 4 gigawatts, uh, Actually, there is a net reaction force, um, just as there is a solar, tiny solar radiation pressure. about eight, eight Newtons. So, um, it's not a very, it's not a very efficient way of, um, propelling at a thing, but there is a, there is a reaction force there from it.

[01:15:04] Markus: But maybe, but maybe for like the long haul to go, I don't know, over decades to a different star system, it could be useful because then like it adds up and it's like the solar sail technology. It's also very slow, but at the, at the, in the end is very fast.

[01:15:21] Martin: Yes, yes, exactly. I don't know, I'm not an expert in this, but people like Alan Bond, engineers and visionaries who've studied how to create spaceships that could get to another star system. Yeah.

[01:15:41] Markus: You should know. Um, but Martin, if you were to go to that different, uh, star system, it's a very long journey. Um, and usually those very long journeys wear off and get boring very fast. So after, I [01:16:00] guess, three weeks on the spacecraft, it gets boring. So my, my question to you, and this is a question I keep asking every guest, um, to keep you entertained, what's the one piece of music? You would not want to miss on that very long, very boring journey. You can pick whatever kind of music you want to pick, but something maybe you think could be dear to your heart, which tune would it be?

[01:16:30] Martin: yes. Oh, goodness, that's difficult. Um, so, Probably, probably some Super Tramp.

[01:16:38] Markus: And which one?

[01:16:39] Martin: Uh, take the long road home or something like that. Yeah, in America.

[01:16:45] Markus: Good. Because we have a Spotify playlist. It's the, it's called the playlist for the aspiring space traveler. And it, um, it's now a pretty extensive playlist already, um, provided, um, by each guest of the show. And so once we're going online with this, um, you'll be online with your selection on that playlist.

[01:17:09] Martin: Ah, cool.

[01:17:11] Markus: And now question number two, um, Martin, um, this show is called the Space Cafe Podcast. It's a, it's a coffee place to listen to. And in coffee places, you now and then have an espresso to energize yourself, uh, when you're getting tired. Now, why don't you share? An espresso for the mind, with me, with the audiences, if you're up for that challenge and up for that analogy.

[01:17:44] Uh, something that has the potential to energize our minds, to inspire us. And you can pick whatever kind of topic you want to pick.

[01:17:54] Martin: I mean, I think I'd be boring and just go back to space based solar [01:18:00] power. I think it's, it's, found that's been just so inspirational for people it's this blend of insanely cool tech. And solving a societal problem. Um, and, and that it's in, within our grasp in the near, near future. I mean, it's, um, so I think it's, it's just incredibly exciting.

[01:18:23] It's going to enable so much. Uh, it's going to be the centerpiece of the next economic revolution in space. Um, being able to build these large structures, Bye. Bye. Rapidly and reliably, repeatedly getting really good at it. Um, I love, uh, Elon Musk's comment. He, he says the, um, you know, high volume of stuff is the friend of, of, of innovation because you can, you can learn and fail and repeat it.

[01:18:52] And you've got a, you've, you've got a big batch of these things coming along the process. So you just take the next one and try it again and evolve. Um, you can't do that with. very turgid, government led research programs, um, and, and you just contrast, you contrast Starship with SLS, for example, and the, and the pace, Yes. the, and the degree of innovation.

[01:19:20] Um, so, yes, my, my, um, expresso shot is space old power,

[01:19:30] if I'm Wonderful. Martin, that was, of course, um, that was very inspiring. Thank you so much for taking the time.

[01:19:39] Oh, it's been a pleasure, Markus. Thank you.

[01:19:41] Markus: And that wraps up our fascinating journey into space based solar power with Martin Saltau, with explored a potential game changer in our quest for sustainable energy, one that reaches [01:20:00] beyond our planet. If you're intrigued by this cosmic solution to our earthly energy challenges, follow SpaceSolar to stay updated on their groundbreaking work.

[01:20:12] Thank you, my friends, for tuning into the Space Cafe Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate and share. Your support helps us continue bringing you cutting edge space topics. Until next time, keep looking up to the stars. This is Markus, signing off. Bye bye.