How to Build Our New Home Beyond Earth: Space Architect Barbara Imhof's Manual

In this episode of the Space Cafe Podcast, host Markus discusses the intricacies of space habitation with Dr. Barbara Imhof, a prominent space architect from Liquifer. They explore the challenges and innovations in making off-Earth living comfortable and sustainable, including construction methods on the Moon, dealing with lunar dust, and creating multifunctional spaces. They also touch on the importance of cooperation for space missions and the influence of seeing Earth from space on human perspective. Barbara shares insights into upcoming projects and discusses ongoing efforts to develop near-future space habitats.

Guest Background:

• Barbara Imhof, co-founder of Liquifer Systems Group, focuses on creating habitable environments in space.
• She is recognized as a pioneering figure in space architecture.

Notable Quotes:

• “Space is such a resource and will also be a scarcity; it’s really about how to use it.”
• “Cooperation is the most essential human trait for sustainable space exploration.”

Additional Resources:

• Liquifer Systems Group
• Recommended Reading: Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir
• Previous Space Cafe Podcast Episode with Georgi Petrov
• Song Selection for Spotify Playlist: Surfing on a Rocket by AIR

Conversation Highlights: 

00:00 Introduction to the Space Cafe Podcast

00:20 Preparing for Space Travel

01:15 Introducing Barbara Imhof and Liquifer

03:09 The White Planet Theory and Mars

04:59 Mars: Water and Life Hypotheses

07:10 Human Fascination with Mars

09:16 Living Beyond Earth: Architectural Challenges

14:29 Space Exploration: Human Nature and History

17:47 Setting Up Habitats on Celestial Bodies

25:45 The Challenge of Lunar Dust

26:43 Designing a Dust-Free Habitat

27:53 Building with Lunar Resources

29:33 Autonomous Construction on the Moon

31:24 Exploring Lava Tubes

32:47 Current Moon Village Plans

34:07 Efficient Use of Space in Lunar Habitats

45:21 The Complexity of Life Support Systems

50:42 The Importance of Cooperation in Space

53:00 Future Space Projects and Vision for 2050

55:18 Personal Reflections and Recommendations

59:38 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Projekt - 29.07.24, 19.53: Hello everyone. This is the Space Cafe Podcast and I'm Markus. So you're finally ready for your big voyage to the stars. You're finally ready to leave the planet. to a completely different home. You're packing up, you're bringing all your beloved things you wouldn't want to miss. But choose wisely, as access to Ikea will be restricted and refurbishing won't be available for A couple of years, maybe decades.

So think carefully about what you want your new home to look like, to feel like, to be like. Consider maybe even details like the kind of hammock, the sleeping bags you'll use, or the beds you'll use, bedsheets maybe, the food you want to eat. How do you envision your life on a different celestial body to be?

And this is exactly what my guest, what today's guest of this show is trying to figure out with her team. Barbara Imhoff is one of the world's leading space architects and together with her team at Liquifer she's addressing these questions. And since I cannot have the entire Liquifer team here right now with me in the studio, um, I'd like to to make sure that you hear the names of who is involved in this fantastic research.

So, Liquifer R, Rene Václavíček. Please everyone, um, please excuse if I'm butchering your last names. Anyways, René Václavíček, Valtraut Hueneida, Monika Brandič Lipińska, Daniel Schubert, Chris Gilbert, and Ingo Rittat. So, and one more story, my friends. I want to thank space architect Georgi Petrov of Skidmore, Owings Merrill.

We had him I'm sure you remember, uh, a couple of episodes ago, right here on the show, and I met him at South by Southwest in Austin, Texas, earlier this year, where, um, we recorded the episode with him and during the recording, he told me that I may be recording, I may be speaking with the wrong person because, um, The most preeminent space architect lives just right around my corner in my hometown, Vienna, and he's called Barbara Imhoff.

So I apologize for my ignorance, and I'm making up for it with this episode. Georgi, you still rock the house. Welcome, Barbara Imhoff, to the Space Cafe Podcast. so Liquifer actually just came to me when I was sitting in the airplane reading The Guardian 

[00:03:18] Barbara: and there was an article about a new theory of how Mars could have 

become the planet it is right now. That actually, it's called the 

White Planet Theory. And so scientists, I think they were Australian scientists, they came up with a 

hypothesis that

Mars or the volcanoes on Mars and the 

canyons they could have built through, uh, CO2, uh, white CO2 

eruptions,

like a magma, but just white and more coldish, and, um, Hmm. And 

I was quite fascinated by it, that there's another way of sort of forming a landscape, of forming a space, of 

creating, sort of 

sculpting a planet. And they were talking about these liquefers. So where the 

liquefer becomes the carrying

canal or system, which Sort of drives or 

shapes a landscape. 

So, um, liquifer 

is sort of a generic term of aquifer.

Aquifer 

is much more commonly used. It's like a 

river. It's like a river or, um, you know, like something even human made, uh, that, that Transfer is water, and liquifer is more the generic 

term, and um, I suggested this to my 

partners at that time. I don't know, and then we 

also, I think everybody liked the name, and even other people who 

were more in the branding and marketing business, 

they said it's very unique. And 

so therefore we kept it. what's 

[00:05:00] Markus: the, in this theory, is, is there anything like substantially 

supporting a theory that on Mars, maybe we're not talking about liquid water, but a different kind of 

liquid, 

[00:05:11] Barbara: No, I think at that time, that 

was really in the, I would say, around 2000 

or so, maybe early 2000s. We didn't know so much 

about Mars. So yes, it was a hypothesis. It could have been true, but we found out that it's not true. So We 

know

much more about Mars. We know there

are sort of underground water. Reservoirs, yeah, there is sort of frozen ice 

and

maybe even, uh, carbon dioxide on the 

poles. But in general, we believe 

that, or scientists believe, it's a 

common knowledge that Mars has not been formed by this white 

planet theory. 

[00:05:55] Markus: but we're still talking about potable 

water would be the wrong term, but liquid water, like the water 

we know on 

earth, we would expect to have 

happened on Mars at some

point.

[00:06:09] Barbara: Yes, yes, there is another sort of general common hypothesis 20 years later is that yes, there was water on Mars, that 

water, that what there were 

oceans, um, but they 

I mean, I'm really not a specialist 

in that but as far as I know, that due to the very thin atmosphere, it couldn't be contained that 

easily.

So it evaporated And yes, over time. 

So that's why it's this kind of dry 

red planet as we know now,

but sort of the water

has kept underground where it, you know, can't evaporate, 

can't escape. 

[00:06:51] Markus: In frozen form, I 

guess,

today, 

[00:06:56] Barbara: Partially, yes. 

I. I really, you know, that is a little bit 

beyond my architectural background.

[00:07:04] Markus: you're the architect or you're not a Mars, a 

Mars expert. 

[00:07:08] Barbara: I know that, you know, before 

us space seems always so far away or some so distant and then people think, you know, once you know a 

little bit about space, you know everything.

I know all about it. But they 

forget that even, you know, there are very different 

disciplines which are quite distinct and where,

you know, you know a lot, but it's more 

like, you know. I also know a lot about Earth, but of course 

I'm not a

geologist. 

[00:07:33] Markus: But the strange thing is 

like in popular culture, at least 

to me, Mars sounds like already, like almost around the corner. Maybe it's in reach. It's 

so familiar, Because over 

history, over the 

centuries, we have been 

Romanticizing with and about Mars. So it's, it's become truly a 

neighboring, a neighboring 

planet to, to,

us.

[00:07:59] Barbara: It is, it is our 

neighbor planet. And, 

um, of course it is, um, present in pop 

culture, in science fiction, in Hollywood 

movies, and, um, it's it's very 

similar. It has 20, uh, 25 hour cycle, 

basically, day and night cycle. So, it's, um, it has some, we believe that, 

we might be able to 

find traces

of ancient life on Mars.

Um, so there are some things also that, you know, 

now it's suggested that there were oceans, so there's the Panspermia 

idea, so maybe life on Earth originated from Mars. so I think there's so many 

interesting, um, Ideas or, 

uh, hypotheses that it's, um, that maybe that's why Mars is such, is so present in our everyday culture.

Mm. Although 

in reality it's 400, um, million kilometers

away, which a huge distance. It's huge. It's, and it's, it's unconceivable

in a way.

[00:09:13] Markus: It is. And this 

is one of your topics that

Liquifer tries 

to grapple with, how to deal with the vastness of space, um, as a human

being. Um, let's start at the beginning. So Liquifer 

is, um, it's your one stop 

shop for

everything, um, human, uh, Slash 

interplanetary. So you wouldn't, you wouldn't transfer humans. So it's, it's not your business to find technologies to transfer humans to different celestial bodies. 

But once, once we're there, it's liquefiers. idea and vision to help find 

solutions as to how to deal with this new environment, how to set up shop, how 

to build 

shelter, how to feed ourselves, how to sleep, how to 

cope with the vastness of space.

So would 

this sort of this book be your, your manual 

to, to deal with anything that's out there? For, for, I mean, like Interplanetary Humans 

101, would that be the title

[00:10:23] Barbara: Um,

[00:10:24] Markus: or the idea?

[00:10:25] Barbara: Well, the title is Living 

Beyond Earth and 

in Extreme Environments or Architecture 

for 

Extreme Environments. So, um, and I think that it's 

really about as soon as we leave the 

atmosphere, which is quite close. it's a hundred kilometers space starts and when, um, you as a person would. you know, fly up to a hundred kilometers, you would already get the astronaut wings, which is not very far, right?

A hundred kilometers in sort of in the Z axis. And, you know, you're already in space. And, um, so we as architects and designers, we deal with sort of creating environments where humans beyond that, you know, threshold of kilometers, um, need a specific Uh, space to, to live. And we are interested in sort of not only that the humans survive, that would be more an engineering challenge, but that they also can live comfortably or that they thrive or they like to be there.

They have a good space there or a good life as possible, as, as good as possible. And so, um, that starts with transportation, the interior of, um of spaceships, it can be the interior of space stations, it can be, sort of, thinking further, it can be, um, bases on the moon or on our neighbor planet Mars, or If we think really very far could be also a generation spaceship. So everything from very, uh, near future and very realistic to something which is maybe more, um, you know, in, can be seen in 50 years, in a hundred years or even further. So this is what we would be interested in. And this is how we look at it. And normally. Especially when humans start living beyond the six months in space, it becomes sort of your home.

So there's a different, it's not a camping trip anymore. It's not a sort of a travel where you just go and travel somewhere and then, you know, you come back after a short while. And then it's, you also have to think differently from an architectural point of view or a design point of view.

[00:12:54] Markus: How do we know that, that after six months, it's your new home? How do we know that?

[00:13:00] Barbara: Well, that is. It is common knowledge, but I think people have found out that, um, there's this margin that, of course, maybe it starts with four months or five months, but, um, normally, typically, a long duration mission starts with six months, and that is considered from a, um, crew, um, And a group performance perspective from sort of individually how we then feel when we know half a year we are away, we can't go out, we can't open the window, we can't, you know, we can't go back that easily that this makes something with us, uh, or with our, uh, you know, psychology and that then we also start behaving differently than if we know, okay, we just go there for two weeks and then I'm back.

It's like a, like a holiday or, you know, it has this, it has a very, you know, different kind of duration.

[00:13:55] Markus: So you're, you're suggesting the perfect holiday should last at least four months.

[00:14:00] Barbara: Well, that is another thing, but, um, that is a good approach, I think, to life.

[00:14:09] Markus: Fantastic. So, um, why to, to start this off? Uh, why are we, because there's a bunch of questions at the beginning of the book that are really compelling and those questions sort of give a framework, a structure throughout the entire publication. And the first question that really drew my attention towards is, why are we so drawn to Traveling into space, to getting out there.

What do you think is it that makes us yearn for that hostile place? Because in fact, space is a place that wants to kill us all the time. So why do we still want to go there?

[00:14:54] Barbara: I think, um, because it's in humans nature, the exploration, when we think about, uh, how Amundsen and Scott tried to reach the South Pole, how, um, Vasco da Gama or Christopher Columbus, when they tried to reach sort of the Americas, when, or find new ways to India, when, um, I think even the Romans, you know, you can, you know, think of any kind of, um, culture, previous culture, ancient culture, they always tried to explore.

They tried to go beyond the known. So stepping into the unknown. And I think that's something which is, you know, which why humans are so successful on this planet. They always ventured into the unknown. They always explored. And, um, So, we have been exploring a lot of the land on Earth. We are starting now to explore a little bit more the oceans, which is most of the volume or most of the space, but it's equally hard as going into space.

And yes, then there's also space. So first I think it's this. The other thing, it's because we have been, we grew up with stories. From space, from sort of something which is beyond with, uh, with traveling to space. And there are even, I remember once being in Mexico, there are even these, uh, very old sort of in stone carved, um, kind of drawings, um, which suggests that, you know, there's somebody sitting in a sort of capsule going upwards.

And this is, I don't know how many, you know, hundreds or thousands of years old. So I think there's something in that. And, and the other thing is that, you know, the sky was always around us. It was always there. space is all around us. There's the sky, there are the stars, and people had different versions of what the stars might be.

You know, since a couple of hundred years, we know sort of what our setting is. And, um, and I think then it's very natural to just, you know, wonder, you know, what if, what if I can go there? What will I see? What will I experience? And so I think these two things that just drive humans to, to go there and to explore, even if it's extremely hostile and dangerous place.

[00:17:30] Markus: Would you personally go?

[00:17:31] Barbara: Yes.

[00:17:33] Markus: That was pretty quick.

[00:17:35] Barbara: No, I'd definitely, I'd go to Space Station, I'd go to the Moon, I wouldn't go to Mars, but I think, you know, the sort of these, these kind of areas, I would definitely want to explore.

[00:17:47] Markus: If we now run through the thread that you're proposing in the book, in the Liquifer Living Beyond Earth Architecture for Extreme Environments publication. Whatever spacecraft will bring you to, I don't know, Mars, to the moon, and whatnot. So the first thing, of course, is, I guess, that you're proposing to set up shop.

We need to build shelter. So how do we do that?

[00:18:18] Barbara: Well, it really depends where I am. So if I'm between celestial bodies, I can use the Lagrange points. I can use points where there's really zero gravity. So where all the gravitational forces from all planets, celestial bodies equal zero. And then I could sort of hang my space station there so I can fix it there.

that, That could be an option for a larger station, but I can also just, you know, what we know. What we do now currently is we circle the orbit, we just go around the Earth, and we find a stable position there through, you know, propulsion, um, and a certain speed, and then we can also, you know, reach that, uh, it.

orbit quite easily and we can live there and we can do research, um, probably in the future manufacturing. It might be, you know, used also for touristic purposes. So there's a lot of things and it's a very, very different environment. Zero gravity is sort of the opposite of everything we know on earth. On earth, everything is bound to gravity.

We walk. You know, being drawn to the center of the mass, we, you know, go upstairs and so on. In zero gravity, I can use all, sort of, all the, the, the, the walls, the ceiling, everything equally and, uh, there's no orientation. So it doesn't give us an, an, an orientation. I don't need. Beds, tables, and I need other things.

It's a completely different life. I've

[00:19:57] Markus: always wondered why we're still playing with the idea of zero gravity in space, in, in spaceships and space stations because 1969 Space Odyssey, Stanley Kubrick has already proposed that proper term keeps escaping me for that wheel. There's a proper term for it. Anyways, so he's already proposed artificial gravity, um, more than 50 years later, we're still not there.

Where's the problem?

[00:20:27] Barbara: I think it's the, um, I think I was talking about the, you know, fixing the station in a LaCronge point. I think in that point, if we are, you know, if we are capable to fix a station in that point, which is not that close to Earth anymore, maybe in the Earth Moon system, then, um, then we probably would also be able to create artificial gravity and this kind of turning wheel, um, to, um, to have a larger station.

But it's, doing something in space is very hard. It's just, I mean, when we actually look very closely of how long it takes to make a rocket safe, And flying, like a new version. It just always takes longer as anticipated. And if, if you imagine that a lot of these projects are multinational projects, multi partner projects, then it just even takes longer.

And it's, it's not easy. It's hard. So that's why everything takes so long. And then. Another point is that the, um, uh, space is sort of, if, if we want to do something in space, we need, uh, is very hard, so it takes time. But the money, so most of the space developments currently in the last 15 years has been driven by government, um, funded budgets, taxpayers money. And so that means that it was very dependent on this four year election cycle.

So it's not that we can spend, we can say, okay, let's look into the next 20 years, 30 years. It's NNB. I don't know. allocate money like each year to give to, um, to a space project or space mission. And then we start, you know, but we, we are certain that we have the next 30 years covered, then you can get quite far in developments and so on.

But with these sort of shorter cycles, it's very hard to do anything in space.

[00:22:42] Markus: getting better now with private organizations, SpaceX? Is that a benefit? Does that?

[00:22:51] Barbara: I think, uh, yeah, I think with some things it has a benefit, um, what we are, we are also always looking for disruptive, um, ideas that sort of break out of the usual paradigm. Because of course, you know, once, you know, an industry has settled, then it's very hard to sort of break that kind of culture, that kind of paradigm, that kind of system procedures or whatever they're used to.

So it's always good if that gets disrupted. And that has been the case in the last, I would say, 10 years. So that's why we, some technologies have been accelerated, for example, transportation. Um, but in general, Space is very complex because there are also issues of who owns the moon, or who will own a planet, or, you know, how do I distribute resources, or how do I manage traffic in orbit, which is absolutely cluttered right now, and all these mini satellites, they don't You know, help to sort of,

[00:24:00] Markus: It's chaos. It's absolute chaos.

[00:24:03] Barbara: so these, they don't have to, uh, to clean it up either.

So it's, you know, there are a lot of, how can I say, it's this, there's no infrastructure, there's nothing there and we are slowly building it, but we have to build everything from the ground up. So it just, again, it's not an easy endeavor to agree on rules on, you know, also how do I want to explore space.

with the people who have the most money or with, uh,

[00:24:32] Markus: ideas.

[00:24:33] Barbara: or the, the astronauts who are, you know, who are paid by governments who do scientific experiments or with a sort of combination and, and all these kinds of things. So right now I think it's sort of, um, it's, everything's being shaken and, you know, people try to find, uh, a new structure.

[00:24:56] Markus: Let's now leave the orbital phase and go to the surface of a celestial body. You pick your favorite celestial body. The moon. Good. So you'll land on the moon. with whatever vehicle, but then you're setting up shop with your team. This is where Liquifer comes in. What would you do first?

[00:25:20] Barbara: Well, the moon is, first of all, it has no atmosphere. It's very cold and very hot, depending, uh, if I'm in a shadow region or if I'm in the sun, if I'm sort of turning towards the sun, then my back is in the shadow. So, you know. Poseidon is very hot, one is very cold, so plus 150 to minus 250 or something. So, so it's a very harsh environment and it's very dusty.

So the first 10, 20 centimeters are covered with dust. Then the dust has become, through the continuous micrometeorite and meteorite impacts, very, very hard. So it's nearly like rock hard. So the first 20 centimeters, you know, and I'm sure everybody knows these, um, Apollo And I think it's very important to mention that there are a lot of videos where they hop around and with each hop they kick up dust and then the dust gets stuck, very abrasive, very thin and it even gets into your lungs, though you have this super airtight suit on.

So it's very important. That's something, one, I think, first premise for human exploration on the moon is the dust, keep the dust out, stay away from the dust, and try, you know, really to, to tackle the dust in sort of

[00:26:37] Markus: So stay, stay away from the dust that covers the entire celestial

[00:26:42] Barbara: Yes. So, so what would I do?

I mean, normally I could transfer into another vehicle because when I land, then a lot of dust gets kicked up. And what I don't want is where my base is to have that kind of dust, dust cloud, um, reach the base. So I will have to create an apron around my landing site where, uh, then the dust. You know, is more or less contained and then I can go to my habitat area.

Um, there's enough dust to be kicked up because I'll probably will drive there and then sort of I get inside the habitat, um, directly from the vehicle. So there's, you know, that from the inside of the vehicle to the inside of the habitat, I try to have a dust free zone.

[00:27:31] Markus: What does the habitat look like? You're proposing different options. situ building, using resources, using that dust to building material, or on the other hand, you would bring your own container. So what are the options here? Or even volcanic, um, structures.

[00:27:53] Barbara: Well, um, what one tries to minimize is transport from earth because it's very costly. And since I have this dust, I have a lot of sun when I go to specific parts, especially the South Pole of the Moon, I can imagine that I take this dust, I Concentrate a solar ray on it, and then I can sinter or, um, melt sort of elements which I can then build upon each other.

And because the moon has no atmosphere, there's all the radiation coming in. So that's why I need a radiation cover. So I need like two to three meters thick, um, elements or dust or sand to be, to protect humans from radiation, which

[00:28:36] Markus: Meters, three meters.

[00:28:38] Barbara: Yes, and then inside that envelope, I can, you know, take from home a very thin, um, other skin, which I can inflate, and that can hold then the pressure, which I also need, because in a vacuum, there's no pressure, so we also need pressure.

So with that kind of system, I have, um, sort of maybe a built up through interlocking elements through kind of Lego bricks or whatever, a shelter against radiation and micrometeorites. Then inside I have this, um, inflatable or inflated, um, uh, pressure shelter. Then inside there, then this would be my base where I can live.

[00:29:24] Markus: Would that be an auto, automatic, um, fabrication process? So there's no humans needed for that phase. So would you send robots first to build, to, to build your village?

[00:29:38] Barbara: I think that's, uh, that's an important aspect because we will not have construction workers there. We will have, we will need to develop a whole fleet of robots and, um, um, rovers and all kinds of machines which can do that for us, which can create a radiation shelter when, uh, which then can also build up the base so that when everything's ready, then humans come in.

Maybe humans have to check in between, of course. sort of short term missions, but in general we need to be able to autonomously construct a lunar base.

[00:30:16] Markus: Is something like this already being looked into on Earth? Like

[00:30:20] Barbara: Now that is a topic which we are trying to sort of promote actively, because it's, um, because we see more and more nice It's, uh, rendered images and designs of lunar bases, but it's so far away because we have no means of constructing them. So I think the next step is really important that we speak to roboticists, to, you know, AI people and try to come up with strategies of how to construct a lunar base, maybe a small lunar base, autonomously.

And the interesting part is that this could also be used on Earth, applied in terrestrial construction. Because the construction business, I mean, is not that, why do humans have to build a house? Why can't it be built? Um, you know, by themselves. So we have that in sort of 3D printed houses. A lot of, you know, building is done by, um, by machines, uh, but still, I think it has to be even more autonomous.

On the moon. Definitely.

[00:31:23] Markus: what speaks against now? The third option would be to go into already naturally sheltering places. What speaks against going into lava tubes and setting up your new home inside?

[00:31:37] Barbara: At the moment, we don't know enough about lava tubes. We don't know if they are structurally sound, if, you know, if we go there, if they don't, you know, collapse. And, um, we haven't and It could be that they're actually not stable enough. We also have moon quakes. They are not very sort of strong, but they're long, so much longer than here on Earth, and we just don't know enough.

It, We cannot, you know, propose it. So there's a lot of propositions, of course, design studies already made, but we don't know for certain. Also, the next thing is sometimes the size is very large. So,

[00:32:21] Markus: Like, like what,

[00:32:23] Barbara: well, there's an 80 meter diameter hole, it goes 80 meters deep, we have to get there to 80, like 8 We just, It's like, you know, we'd have to investigate that further.

So for now, it's an option, but from a feasibility point of view, I'm not really sure.

[00:32:47] Markus: What are the current moon village plans and, and, and what is out there? What kind of technology are they looking into?

[00:32:58] Barbara: Well, I think the common approach right now is really to, to, uh, You know, for short duration missions, just put a module there and do it, you know,

[00:33:08] Markus: it from Earth.

[00:33:09] Barbara: it from Earth, sort of Apollo style. For longer, we need radiation shelter. And then just to take the sand and, you know, either cover that module, which is maybe a little bit absurd to cover a very expensive, um, you know, 300, 500 million, uh, Euro module with sand, but, um, but it

[00:33:32] Markus: It's

[00:33:32] Barbara: be.

But it has to be covered for longer

[00:33:36] Markus: Are those artificial containers, are they radiation safe?

[00:33:41] Barbara: Well, there, there are possibilities with high density, uh, plastic, um, specific plastic, um, I think it's called polypropylene to sort of that shields a little bit from radiation, but not for long duration. So it might be something for a shorter duration, but not for, you know, half a year on the moon.

[00:34:07] Markus: Good. Now we have our shelter. Um, how do we, what does a shelter, what, what does it, what, in how far is it different on the inside than, um, the room we're sitting in right now?

[00:34:20] Barbara: I think that, um, Since in space, every resource counts, space itself becomes, uh, habitable space becomes a resource. So, um, and we need to treat every resource very carefully, whether it's air, water, food, any kind of material or available space to live in.

Um, it's probably will be, um, We have to take care that we use it, uh, very efficiently, that it's not, um, I think we will, we will need a lot of stuff up there. Then a lot of stuff will probably be brought, but not so much be taken back. So we have, we will need a lot of storage space. We will need some repair, um, workshops.

Uh, we need, uh, um, greenhouses and some, and habitation area. And, uh, And even for, uh, Sort of a smaller lunar base, but when I want to live there longer, and I also want to learn how to live completely autonomously so that we can also go to Mars, because this is the prerequisite for Mars, then it will all be quite densely packed.

I assume it will not be a luxurious hotel suite. It'll, it'll be maybe, you know, more caravan living, even if it's indoors.

[00:35:47] Markus: Do you like caravan lifestyle?

[00:35:50] Barbara: I think for a while it's okay, depending on what else there is to do.

[00:35:55] Markus: Um, if I remember correct, what's really compelling about your proposal in the book is the multi functionality of rooms. So you don't have your living room and a separate bedroom and a separate kitchen. It's all, it all comes together and transforms itself and, and sort of, um, Transforms itself into whatever it is needed for.

Um, so that, can you talk to this a little,

[00:36:25] Barbara: Yes, I think because space is such a resource and will also be a scarcity, it's really about how to use it. So first of all, we think that, because also we don't know who's going to live there. We're not planning for a family who we can get to know and then we know their habits. We know just principles about human habits.

So, so then, uh, we can. And then we have us, you know, we don't have so much space, so then we have to allow them also to create their own space, to define it as, as they go along, as they live, because they will become the experts in lunar living. We just sort of do the first step in anticipating and creating scenarios of how it is to live on the moon.

So if the space is multifunctional, if I can transform it easily, then it'll give the crew an option to also adapt the space. to the way they live there or what they will find out through, through living there, what they will actually need. And that'll also then will give us more clues and, um, and hints of how to improve the design.

That's sort of in addition to, to the compactness of living.

[00:37:38] Markus: I like this idea a lot. And I think, um, on the internet, there's, there's a bunch of, um, similar experiments in very expensive places on earth, um, especially in the Asian countries, um, where. Those transform, self transforming rooms are already being experimented with. I don't know if this is already going beyond experiments.

So is, do people actually already live in such, such architecture?

[00:38:08] Barbara: think you just mentioned it.

I mean, when I think about Hong Kong, you know, where square meter prices and rents are, you know, in exorbitant, then, you know, people need to, if they really want to live there, they just need to handle the, the, the minimal space. And then what do you do? I mean, you want, you have to sleep. There's some, you know, minimal functions a space or a flat or an apartment has to fulfill.

You have to sleep. You need some, you know, area for hygiene. You need, um, you need a kitchen. And then maybe, you know, you also don't always want to, you know, sit and work on your bed or eat, you know, while sitting on your bed. So maybe then you want to, you know, take the bed away, which is also in the Japanese culture.

Uh, it's, um, it's quite normal to sort of take away the, the mattress, you know, if it's based on this tatami to, to recreate the space during the day and to do something else.

[00:39:10] Markus: It's always been kind of awkward. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the importance of sleep, but it's awkward to have a sleeping room in the first place, a room that you're not using in your conscious phase. Um, and that's occupying quite a bit of financial. Contribution and requirements also. So you have a room that's solely dedicated to sleeping.

Um, and I think this is not really, maybe again, maybe I'm misunderstanding sleep, but this doesn't sound efficient.

[00:39:44] Barbara: Yes, I mean, in general, you could argue that our flats before the pandemic, they were empty, you know, at least one third of the day, right?

Eight hours.

[00:39:55] Markus: exactly.

[00:39:56] Barbara: And, um, and so, or even longer. So, It's a complete, you know, and then there are these, everybody wanted a huge flat, you know, so you just wonder why that and then, you know, suddenly the offices became more empty because you shared this or you were starting traveling a lot and then there was the pandemic and then suddenly everything was squeezed into the flat and now, you know, the offices are very much empty because nobody wants to return to the office for, you know, I don't think that's such a good idea.

Always a good idea, but I'm, I'm just saying, so I think that, yes, I think it's really about the use of space, especially when we think about how, how much space we actually take away from an environment, which we really need, we call it nature. And it's sort of, um, being taken away, you know, eat, you know, it gets eaten up by human settlements all over the world.

And it's not, um, It's probably nothing which will, in the long run, will help

[00:41:02] Markus: It's not sustainable, we could even add cars to, to what you're saying. We, we, we invest loads of money. In a thing we're essentially not using for 90 percent of 24 hours.

[00:41:19] Barbara: Yes, I mean, parking lots on the street. I mean, you really wonder. It's 10 square meters, 10 square meters. It's quite a considerable, you know, room size. And you could have even your little garden there, or, you know, something else.

[00:41:36] Markus: so all this is in fact, the way we live in fact the exact opposite of a good architect. Am I going too far? what a good architect would envision our society to be like.

[00:41:53] Barbara: Yes, I think that, I mean, one can see it now in the, in the new planning of, um, of urban quarters, of new quarters that there is, you know, less, there are less cars, there will be less cars in the street. It's very hard to ban the cars because there's so much infrastructure, which is just being made for cars, but, you know, trying to get it into the garage, creating incentives of not using it, you know, good public transport, um, and, you know, more trees, more green, also because cities getting hotter and hotter.

And I think there is, there's a tendency which gets a little bit better, but it seems, you know, it just seems always. Not enough.

[00:42:40] Markus: It is, but this is what makes us human, always not enough. if someone needed to define our species, maybe that's, that's the one line, always not enough. Um, do you think that, Venturing beyond our confines of our planet will make us evolve in a different way. Maybe also evolve in a way that we get beyond that kind of thinking that you just mentioned.

Will we become different humans?

[00:43:18] Barbara: Well, I think that's what we all wish that the more people sort of have the opportunity to go beyond the Earth's atmosphere, that they sort of get a different perspective. Um, with astronauts, we see that They, there's this so called overview effect, that when they start seeing Earth from further away, seeing it as a whole, that they, you know, you can't see national borders anymore.

And you can't, you know, you can't see many things you would always see when you're in you know, on the surface, you know, because you're so much within. But when you're outside, you just see sort of one planet and that it's quite lonely, you know, around this, in this big universe in this, you know, against the black.

This one Apollo 8 image, which was quite coining and which also influenced a lot of the environmental organizations and, and the movements towards a more sustainable living.

[00:44:21] Markus: Um, we'll see. Liquifer, in your publication, there is a lot of examples that you're also, uh, developing. So for example, now we, we have set up shop, we have a shelter, now we know what the room looks like, but you also made up your mind regarding how to feed ourselves, how to sleep. You even designed sleeping bag.

You designed robots, how to get from, to do. research for us, then you designed, um, a vehicle to get us from A to B. So again, going back to, to me referring to that book as your manual for extraterrestrial life, what is the one concept that you dealt with that you would say is the most difficult for us, for humans, to grapple with when it comes to becoming an extraterrestrial?

terrestrial species.

[00:45:21] Barbara: think the most difficult is currently life support systems, closing the loop. So creating circular systems where everything we bring into that system, including ourselves, sort of can be sustained within a loop where nothing gets to waste, where everything can be recycled, um, where we can also feed ourselves.

And have sufficient food, which we can grow ourselves. So I think that is something very difficult, but very essential to, um, to find out and to develop and to master, uh, when we want to go further than the moon.

[00:45:59] Markus: What is the problem with all this? Because I'm, I'm always when, when you talk about this, I'm seeing that, that, Huge glass flask in front of me with, um, that, a sealed glass flask with, with a bunch of plants inside doing their thing and being contained an environment, a self containing environment. I don't know, there's a term for it, I Um,

[00:46:26] Barbara: a biosphere,

[00:46:27] Markus: biosphere, exactly. Biosphere. So that was biosphere. We can. Already buy even on, on, uh, delivery services or in, in, in gift shops. So this is the problem you're referring to, how to create a biosphere, a sealed biosphere that does not in, does not need influx from the outside. So where is the problem with all of this?

Where are we lacking ability and, and ideas. 

[00:46:57] Barbara: I think it's the complexities. You know, when you buy in the shop these little biospheres, then you have very, uh, very few plants. You have plants which sort of like each other, in a way. You have, uh, no insects. Uh, you, it's, it's very, a very minimal thing you, you have there. And so, That is sort of the complexity we can master.

We can, of course, master a little bit more of complexity. And the Chinese National Space Administration, they have this Lunar Palace, which is a simulation facility for people of four, and they are very close to Earth. really closing the loop. So they have mastered food for people, insects, um, in, in that kind of environment.

But we also know from Biosphere 2, the experiment from the 1990s in, in the United States, in Arizona, that which was a hugely complex system with, It's sort of remodeling Earth with an ocean, with a savanna, with a rainforest and, and some fields to produce food, to grow food. That it's, it's highly complex and that it's, it's, you know, if one component is wrong, the whole thing fails more or less.

It's um. And it's not easy, you know, we are so, you know, we take everything always for granted. We take for granted that, you know, that Earth is there, that we can breathe, there are trees, there are insects, there's everything. Even if, you know, we are decreasing, you know, all life forms here on Earth, but, but still we do.

take so many things for granted. But if you want to recreate that, it's, very complex. And I think there are also some things we don't really know. So what we can, when we recreate these biosphere, we do it on a very simple level in the end, um, for spaceships or, in a way that we can control it.

Even our body, I think we have millions of different bacteria in our biome and without them we are dead. So, you know, they're all creatures. It's all alive in a way and we, and this needs to be controlled, um, and, um, to be also put together so that they all You know, take care and like each other and, you know, no virus is emerging, etc.,

etc. And I think that has been the difficulty also because the other thing is that, sort of, we have the simple life support systems that we have on space station. There are some, it's not completely closed, um, but we can deal with it. But to really, really close it, that is difficult. It's just very hard. We can reach 80 percent very easily, or maybe 90%, but the last 10 percent that's like the huge challenge.

I

[00:49:50] Markus: mean, like Earth has invested millions of years to balance out our biosphere, all the components. It's a, it's a huge complex system and we're trying to do it in years or decades. So maybe that's one of the reasons it's so tricky and maybe we can never get there.

[00:50:12] Barbara: Yeah, that's a good point. That's in addition, you know, time, of course, you know, there's, you try to develop it maybe within four years of, uh, you know, election period or something like that. No, I mean, lots of, um, um, life support systems get developed further, but, you know, it's also something, again, you, you have to invest a lot of money continuously and then it doesn't, you know, get, uh, how can I say, you need long

[00:50:39] Markus: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:40] Barbara: it. also of investment.

[00:50:42] Markus: What's the one human trait that is most required for us to make it sustainably out there?

[00:50:55] Barbara: Cooperation, I would say. I think it's, you know, these huge space projects are always about cooperation. You put people into a confined, isolated environment, they They only can survive if they cooperate. They're very dependent on each other. And also, a mission can be completely jeopardized if they, you know, if something goes really wrong with sort of the, the human individual.

[00:51:30] Markus: That nicely speaks also to what we're doing on earth right now. I mean, like we're, we're pretty rapidly maneuvering ourselves into a period of lots of friction, lots of non cooperation. Knowing from your scientific perspective that if we want to survive as a species out there in space, cooperation is needed.

So we're still in a very, we're going the wrong way right now. We're still in a very primitive social state down here on Earth.

[00:52:01] Barbara: Yes, that's what I always feel when

[00:52:04] Markus: No one is

[00:52:05] Barbara: the news. No, it's not about no one is listening, but you know, I think that, and we know, you know, when we look at the International Space Station, the International Space Station is a huge, success in terms of cooperation. So many countries, so many, um, different people, cultures collaborated on this.

It took a long time in designing that, in getting it together. We have been running it now for 20 plus years. And, you know, and, and, Um, there are, um, people from, from Russia, from the U. S., from Japan, from Europe, sometimes, um, other spaceflight participants from other countries. They all come together here.

And the space station partners, they have succeeded in creating contracts that are for the long term. And that is why this cooperation is quite stable.

[00:53:00] Markus: What are the current projects that you're working on?

[00:53:04] Barbara: we currently work on the next space station, Gateway, which is about to orbit the moon by the end of this decade already. Um, we will see that there's a European module, the International Habitat Module, which is a joint venture between the European Space Agency and the Japanese Space Agency. And, it is sort of the prime contractor in Europe, uh, who pays for it.

who takes care of the interior, build implementation of the interior configuration, installs a linear space. So we work for them. We did um, a couple of design studies in the beginning. We uh, created a mock up. Um, a one to one mock up, which is now being used to train or to verify the design. So maybe there will be design amendments, which I believe, and then we will also implement that.

So now it's sort of a low fidelity, rather a volumetric representation, and later it'll become a sort of mock up. Medium fidelity, a more real like representation of the module. And this is, will be also used to train the astronauts later for their missions.

[00:54:17] Markus: What's your realistic vision for the next decades, maybe until 2050? Where will we be in 2050 when it comes to venturing out there into the unknown?

[00:54:34] Barbara: we will have established a base on the moon. I hope it's going to be an international base, um, where, you know, Everybody has, um, shares common infrastructure, maybe they have their own modules, but they also have common infrastructure they share. They use it as a research platform, but they also probably use it for commercial, um, activities.

Um, 2050, um, I guess we would be on our way to Mars. First human mission to Mars.

[00:55:07] Markus: My Elon proposes to be on the way to Mars in 2029.

[00:55:13] Barbara: always propose earlier, but we'll see what's going to happen.

[00:55:18] Markus: Barbara, you already mentioned very, um, vividly that you would be the first to go into space if the call came right now. Um, we have a fun tradition on the show to ask our guests for, because it's going to be a boring ride wherever you're going, it's very long and the initial excitement will wear off after a couple of days.

So what's the one piece of music that will soothe your mind and give you give you a meaning to travel on out there? So what's the one piece of music?

[00:55:56] Barbara: I think, uh, I would choose Surfing on a Rocket by AIR, because I always think about, um, this one movie, which title I now forgot, anyway, 

[00:56:13] Markus: one 

more question, um, as this place is a space cafe, um, a coffee place, uh, where I'd like to challenge you to share with me an espresso for the mind, like to energize our audience's minds.

What's the kind of espresso for the mind you'd like to share?

[00:56:34] Barbara: what I still have in my mind, and I have very vivid images, is, um, the, um, the literature. I'm reading a lot of science fiction literature, and, um, it's not the last book I read. It's called Hail Mary,

[00:56:57] Markus: Project Hail Mary?

[00:56:58] Barbara: Project Hail Mary, right? By Andy By Andy Weir, exactly. I always, I, I read the German, um, version and then it's called Der Astronaut, The Astronaut. So, but the English translation is Project Hail Mary. And I still, I'm still, quite, you know, I remember so many descriptions and so many scenes, and I don't know why, but maybe it's the encounter with another intelligence, which is sort of not the usual type of intelligence you see in, in movies or in other science fiction stories. really a quite intelligent other living being. It's very different from us, and it's sort of, um, And then the way that the story turns, it always has these, like, new turns, which you don't and I don't want to, you know, spoil sort of the end of it, but that kind of one of the last images is very, um, um, How can I say?

It's, it still stays in my mind and I have it right in front of me when I think about that, that book. It's about traveling to a distant destination through hibernation, waking up, and then there's a whole crew but only one person makes it, wakes up, and suddenly, you know, looking around and trying to find the actual sort of destination of that mission, which is about saving Earth.

But, you know, many years have passed already, of course. Uh, but, you know, that person, um, encounters this other spaceship and also suddenly finds out that there's another creature. living on it.

[00:58:40] Markus: And maybe now we should not spoil her too much. Maybe, because you're making me very curious. Andy Weir is the one who also wrote The Martian,

[00:58:51] Barbara: Right. He also wrote The Martian and probably the Project Hayme will be in the movies soon, you know, will be, you know, converted into a movie. So in this you can see it in the cinema. So maybe you just go and read it before it appears in the movies.

[00:59:06] Markus: you come back and spoil the rest of the um, Barbara, thank you so much for taking the time.

[00:59:14] Barbara: It was a pleasure. Thank you.

[00:59:22] Projekt - 29.07.24, 19.53: Isn't it truly fascinating what is going on right now? What we're doing here, what we just discussed with Barbara? I mean, like, we're getting ready to not only leave Earth, With rockets, that's one thing.

That's a challenge in itself, but that's, people are taking care of that. But I mean like that we're now making up our minds as to how we want to live out there. In what form, how we should, I don't know, make those places, how we can make those places comfortable for not only months Years and decades to come.

This is truly fascinating to me. This is a pocket in time that's very, very, very unique. Fantastic. I hope you enjoyed this fascinating episode as I did. To me, it was truly fascinating. I know I'm repeating myself. Barbara's work with Lake Bifur is truly pioneering and shows us how we might create homes out there.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share the Space Cafe Podcast with your friends. Your support helps us reach new heights. And of course, we'd love to hear you. Check out our show notes and there's a link at the very end where you can leave suggestions, questions, or feedback. Stay tuned for more episodes where we explore the cutting edge of space exploration.

Until next time, keep dreaming big and stay curious. Thanks for joining us and goodbye