Space Café Podcast - Navigating Our Interplanetary Ambitions
If you feel the excitement of standing at the threshold of a new era in human history, you've come to the right place. At Space Café, our bi-weekly hour-long episodes go beyond current events in space exploration – we're peering into the future of our species among the stars.
Each week, we:
- Engage with visionaries who are actively shaping our cosmic destiny
- Explore groundbreaking technologies turning science fiction into reality
- Discuss the implications of becoming a multi-planetary civilization
- Take listener questions about humanity's future in space
What sets Space Café apart:
- Deep dives into ideas that will define our cosmic future
- Diverse expertise: from astronauts and engineers to philosophers and entrepreneurs
- Complex topics made accessible through engaging discussion
- Interactive Q&A segments with our expert guests
Recent episodes feature:
- A Mars settlement architect on the practicalities of off-world living
- A space law expert exploring lunar resource rights
- An astro-biologist speculating on potential alien life
Whether you're a space industry professional, sci-fi enthusiast, or simply gaze at the night sky with wonder, Space Café is your front-row seat to humanity's greatest adventure.
So, grab your cosmic latte and join us every Wednesday at 2100 UTC. At Space Café, we're not just talking about the future – we're helping to shape it.
The next giant leap for mankind is just beginning.
Are you ready to take it with us?
Space Café Podcast - Navigating Our Interplanetary Ambitions
Spaceonomics - The future of an industry seen through the eyes (and wallets) of an investor
We love to hear from you. Send us your thought, comments, suggestions, love letters
Rockets! Satellites! Asteroids! Let's blast off into the world of space investment with engineer-turned-investor Christian Ziach. He shares insights on Europe's space race, the challenges of refueling satellites in orbit, and why asteroid mining might be trickier than we thought.
Also: the Ariane 6 dilemma, space sustainability woes, how to turn scientists into entrepreneurs, the MASCOT mission's nail-biting success, and whether we're really ready to settle on Mars.
Grab your space suit and strap in. We're going to the final frontier of finance!
Listen via Apple Podcasts Spotify iHeartRadio Castbox Podcast Addict or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Key topics:
00:00 Introduction
02:33 European space sector challenges
13:19 Hot areas for space investment
26:58 Space sustainability concerns
46:45 The MASCOT asteroid mission
53:55 Asteroid mining prospects
01:00:55 The future of space industry
01:04:40 Mars colonization challenges
Follow Christian Ziach on [LinkedIn]
➡️ [European Space Agency (ESA) Ariane 6 Program]
➡️ [SpaceX Starship Development]
➡️ [NASA Artemis Program]
➡️ [Blue Origin]
➡️ [United Launch Alliance]
➡️ [MASCOT Mission to Asteroid Ryugu]
➡️ [Planetary Resources (defunct asteroid mining company)]
➡️ [Deep Space Industries (defunct asteroid mining company)]
➡️ [Astroforge (current asteroid mining company)]
➡️ [Andy Weir's "Project Hail Mary" and "Artemis" books]
➡️ [Robert Zubrin's "First Landing" book]
Other Episodes that might interest you
- Terhi Vapola - Greencode Ventures, Green Investments, Digital Transformation and the Future of Space Technology
- Bianca Lins: Small Nation,
You can find us on Spotify and Apple Podcast!
Please visit us at SpaceWatch.Global, subscribe to our newsletters. Follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter!
SCP_114_Master_Sequence
[00:00:00] Markus: Hello everyone, this is the Space Cafe Podcast and I'm Markus.
Have you ever wondered who holds the crystal ball to the future of the space industry? Let's, uh, just forget for the sake of this episode about the usual suspects for a moment. Instead, let's picture someone who has got some serious skin in the game, whose livelihood Even depends on getting those cosmic forecasts right.
That's right, we're talking today about investors. The unsung prophets of the space age. And maybe I have a little bit of a treat for you today. Because today we're sitting down with no other than Christian Zierch. A man who's worn a bunch of hats in the space industry. From engineering the groundbreaking mascot mission, where we sort of played interplanetary darts with an asteroid. To now calling the shots at a high tech founders fund. Christians got a front row seat to the space To the Space Cafe and to the Space, not only the Space Cafe Podcast, but to the Industries Blockbuster Show.
And today we're trying to pick his brain about everything like the current state of the European space endeavor. And all I can say already is I think it's not going to be, uh, smooth. Sailing, in this respect, to the mind bending possibilities of asteroid mining. And just wait until you hear Christian's thoughts about our potential Martian future, which is not all red dust and potatoes, folks.
So, Why don't you strap in and get ready for a journey that's part rocket science and part fortune telling, and all fascinating. We might not be able to defy gravity today, but I promise your mind will be floating by the end of this episode. Let's go. Have fun.
[00:02:33] Christian_2: Ja,
[00:02:33] Markus: so what's, what's going on in the European, uh, space sector? Um, when it comes, there's, there's been a bunch of, um, attempts to also go into the launcher business and whatnot. So what's the current state of affairs? Where is Europe headed? And how do we compare to the rest of the world? I know it's a big question.
[00:02:55] Christian_1: yeah, it is.
It is. I mean, starting, uh, with, uh, uh,
launcher industry, I mean,
uh, we have all witnessed what's, happened in the U. S. with,
uh, the, uh, several launch attempts of Starships. So I
think SpaceX is, uh, leading the pack
and they're, yeah, they're
showing us
the
way in other words. And, uh, according to Josef Aschbacher, Europe is back.
Yeah. But
the question is, are we back with the
right vehicle? Yeah, at the right point in time, at the right, you
know,
price, and, I would put a big question mark next to it. Yeah. I mean, we see several, uh, Um, small launch providers in the making, I mean, uh, they have announced their
launch
attempts, um, for later this year, we have witnessed,
um, what can go wrong, um, I think
a few days
ago, uh, there was this, uh, dramatic, um, stage test in, um,
Scotland. Uh, it was a test conducted by, uh, colleagues from Rocket Factory Augsburg. And, um, I
wouldn't. Overestimate the
outcome of such a
test.
I mean, it's, what I
would call work in progress, so it's perfectly fine.
And I think we will see that more often. And I think that is needed in order to fail forward.
And
that is exactly what SpaceX was doing
over the
last years.
Not every attempt of a new launch vehicle
was successful,
but they basically
said,
we will fail. while
we are failing, we learn a lot. Yeah.
And um, all the failures
are
priced in
And, um, yeah, while doing that, we will make
uh, progress, yeah,
And we'll come, uh, um, yeah, Um, around
with a new class of
vehicle. We will have
a two stage,
uh, fully
reusable launch vehicle Advent of this process. And we have to understand in Germany,
and Europe
yeah, uh, that, uh, this is the way
to go. This is the right mantra. Yeah. We should not. Be afraid of failing, yeah, of,
um, you know, uh, explosions on the launch
pad. Yeah, this
is something we
would see more often in the next months to come.
And in my understanding,
that's, that's part of the
business and all the investors backing these companies.
Yeah. I mean, I hope
they are aware of
these risks and they are aware
of the
chances
and they have
uh, financed their companies accordingly. Because,
uh, if
we take
SpaceX
as the
uh, best in class S company in that sense,
Yeah. It took them with Falcon one F for attempts
to reach orbit.
Yeah. And, and we should give our, um, startups, um, also similar chance
Yeah. Uh, to to succeed.
Yeah.
[00:05:47] Markus: We celebrated, you mentioned Josef Aschbacher, we celebrated the first launch of ARIANE 6 quite a bit. ARIANE 6 is not reusable.
[00:06:01] Christian_1: Yes.
[00:06:02] Markus: do you make of that?
[00:06:04] Christian_1: Well, what should I say? Um, it's a decision which
was taken a long time ago. It was a decision when,
uh,
it was clear that SpaceX is on a different
path that, um, they are all
in when it comes to reusability. And, um,
in, in Europe,
I think, um, the general School of Thought was like, okay,
um, if we go straight to a reusable vehicle, that might be too much
for us, yeah, for the risk appetite of
the decision makers, um,
working with
taxpayers money, yeah? And, um, I think they missed a chance to leapfrog, yeah? A generation, um, yeah, a generation of launch vehicle here,
yeah, and, um, Ariana 6, I mean, it will fill,
a market gap, yeah, which exists,
yeah, and it's,
uh, booked,
yeah, so, um, the
order booked is nicely filled, no doubt
about that.
But,
uh, when it
comes down to
the numbers,
yeah, um, in terms of pricing, um, we have to ask ourselves whether this vehicle is, uh,
competitive in the long run. And I have still
some strong doubts about that.
[00:07:21] Markus: Is, is ARIANE booked because of subsidies? Or is Ariane booked because it's a great vehicle and it's in great need?
[00:07:33] Christian_2: I
[00:07:33] Christian_1: think it's
because it's a vehicle and it's hopefully available at the right point in time.
I mean, what nobody wants is, you know, a monopoly, yeah, on the launcher side,
[00:07:45] Christian_2: yeah.
[00:07:46] Christian_1: and, we should not be naive about, SpaceX, um, Business practices. here. I mean, they will lower the cost only
further if they face, more competition.
Uh, So all the other
launch
providers, whether they are small or big, uh, they need
to assure that they deliver on their plans
And, uh,
that will, you know, uh,
lower the prices. Yeah. And, uh, that will, uh, help us, to open, uh, space, uh, for
future businesses,
uh,
uh, which are
currently maybe,
uh, out of
reach
due to, the, um, launch cost.
Okay. Do you have any intel as to where the European launcher sector is headed? Because I could imagine that once Ariane 6 is now becoming a workhorse or is already the workhorse it was designed and built for, so I guess the next generation is already being. Um, worked on and developed. So is that next generation something completely different?
I think, um, what will change and, uh, where we see a lot of discussion is the way, uh, you know,
EA is or will
procure, uh, the next
launch. So the procurement strategy will
change, um, especially, um, German, decision makers, asked for more
competition, they're demanding
more competition.
And I think, that is, important. And, it should not be like, okay,
[00:09:30] Christian_2: Um,
[00:09:31] Christian_1: only companies with a
certain
[00:09:34] Christian_2: um,
[00:09:35] Christian_1: traction, heritage should be eligible to participate in such
a competition. We should also give, you know, uh, newbies a fair
[00:09:44] Markus: A fair chance.
[00:09:45] Christian_1: Uh, why so? Um, I mean, we've all witnessed what Uh, happened with uh, Boeing, with United
Launch Alliance. Yeah. So, um, they followed the old,
the traditional path. They are used
to work with uh, cost, uh, plus contracts. Yeah. And we see the outcome. Um, now we have. probably two stranded astronauts
on board of the ISS. Yeah.
And if that's, you know, Uh, the, the, the claim
here,
yeah,
to trust, you know, uh, established company, and I would say, thank you.
Maybe that's not long of the right way to uh, do a business. Yeah. Maybe, uh, other companies and, we see, you know,
how SpaceX is doing this, yeah,
uh, are in a better position and a better shape, uh,
to deliver. Now on time on cost and quality.
[00:10:35] Markus: Whereas, because we've been talking so much, not only us on the, on the show, because it's still very early, the media is full of SpaceX and of course, SpaceX know, Elon knows very well how to play that musical instrument, that organ, so to say. But what is What's happening at Blue Origin at the moment? Where are they at?
Um,
[00:11:04] Christian_1: good question. I mean, there are some rumors
out there that
uh, they are interested in buying United Launch Alliance.
If you,
uh, you might know that,
uh, Blue Origin
is um, a supplier
The United Launch Alliance,
they provide, um, engine,
the rocket engine to the Vulcan
rocket.
and,
uh, they would be interested,
you know, to step into this business in order to be eligible, you know,
for the
large governmental launch contracts, which are in place.
And as of
today, uh, the
only two eligible companies
are, uh,
SpaceX. and United Launch
Alliance. And,
um, you know, they were suing each other, you know, in the past. And,
um, Jeff Bezos, um, was
really trying hard to get, you know, the foot
into the
door of this,
uh, multi billion business. And, uh, you know,
acquisition, which I would assume could easily afford, uh, would, um, contribute to this,
uh, larger
plan.
[00:12:10] Markus: I'd like to come back to that in a, in a minute, but I'd also like to come to your core business and your, you have your roots in engineering and your roots in DLR in the space industry, but then at some point you moved into the investment business in the, in the space industry. And I'd like to. Take the liberty to use also your expertise to look a bit into the future and you as the principal at Hitech Founders Fund, um, you are very much aware of where to place your your bets and where you, where to place your money.
So, um, wherever investors are placing their bets is a good indicator as to where something could be headed. So let me ask you this, which, which areas or types of projects in the space industry are receiving the most focus, the most funds from your end, from the founder's fund?
[00:13:19] Christian_1: Yeah, I mean, um, I would always say walk the talk, right? So, uh, where you put the money in, yeah, you're
probably on the right way here. And
um, well,
um,
I mean, you can, Uh, you see, and you are probably aware of
all my previous investments
in the space sector, yeah, and, um, currently we are very
much interested in, um, the field of,
um, yeah, dual use, uh, resiliency, um, everything what makes a significant, um, contribution
to The
Resiliency of our
space systems.
Um, So I think
it's really interesting to look into
alternative GPS solutions. If we, um, see our, you know, um,
assets in a jammed environment, for instance, it can affect not only, you know,
military assets, it can affect,
planes, ships,
yeah,
which are then
guided, yeah, by jammed, um,
uh, signals.
And, um, that is, I think, a very big business
and, uh, interesting, um, investment opportunity, uh, next to it, um, given, you know,
all the risks we see in space, uh, from the growing number of space debris,
and, uh, given, you know, the fact that some actors
in space do not behave as responsible as they should, uh, it's, uh, I think
important to,
uh, Um, make our assets in space, um,
also more resilient.
And, uh, what do I mean by that? I mean, they should have, um,
you know, the capability to maneuver without regret.
That is also something what was asked, uh, for by the United States
Space Force.
We would love, uh,
to show that their assets,
which were
also sometimes called, uh,
juicy targets for,
uh, certain
reasons.
Um, they
would love to maneuver them without
sacrificing the lifetime because you need to, uh,
fuel, you know, for all the station keeping maneuvers,
et cetera, to assure that they are uh, in the right position. And if
you have to
uh, move your satellite because
another satellite
is chasing you, spying on you, or you're under attack, or you have to,
um, avoid, uh,
collision with,
uh,
space debris.
Yeah.
Um, it, it goes all at the expense
of your
lifetime. And, um, that is something
what limits your, um, Capability in space and, uh, militaries,
especially in the U.
S., don't like to be limited,
yeah, in the usage of their assets, yeah, and they would like to see, um, means of refueling, yeah, to give them, um, Yeah,
a wider envelope, yeah, for
their operations
and for their maneuvers.
And
that is something, um, which is,
um, still, you know, in an early phase.
I mean, there are not too many companies out there.
With, for instance,
OrbitFab in the U. S.
they are already working with the U. S. Space Force, and
there are not too many players in that field in Europe or
in the rest of the
world.
I think that is, a very
important topic, even though we still don't know, you know,
how all the economics, will, pay off. Yeah. This is still, um,
Uh, very early market and time will tell how
things will, pan out at the end of the day,
Um, next to it,
Um.
[00:16:55] Markus: I, can I just ask a quick question regarding refueling, just out of curiosity? So this is a new technology applied to old technology. So is old technology, are old satellites even equipped to be refueled or aren't they bolted tight and shut because they were never intended to be refueled?
[00:17:18] Christian_1: Um, from
a design point of view, the vast majority is not equipped
to be refueled, but there are means,
you know, to live and to work with the existing design in terms of conducting refueling missions. You have to,
sometimes you have to open a valve, you have to
open a valve. Um, remove,
uh, certain thermal insulation layers, et cetera.
So
it requires also Um, robotic, um,
you know, systems,
um,
to do this, um, basically, um, um, maneuver and to do the entire refueling. So it's not like you can
fly to a gas station
or a satellite with a fuel tank will come to you, uh, and, and, uh, we'll, uh, do a refill in
a few minutes.
It's, uh, not, um, It won't be like that, yeah, it will be more difficult in the early phase, but,
um, in the future, and that is something,
for
instance, OrbitFab is working on,
um, satellites will be equipped
with, um, um,
[00:18:27] Christian_2: The,
[00:18:27] Christian_1: um, ports with fueling ports.
and, um, the question
is, okay, uh, with these, uh, ports be standardized, uh, with these, uh, ports be, um, uh, proprietary,
uh, will we follow a kind of, um,
open standard?
Um, um, strategy.
So with an open standard, yeah, uh, because
imagine, uh, you would have a car,
yeah, and you would go to a gas station and your, um, uh, fueling port is not comfortable with what the gas station is providing or operating,
yeah. And this is something, uh, we need to assure. And,
um, I would say,
um, the best majority of the customers is is probably
interested in an open standard, um, solution, because nobody is
interested to,
um, depend only on one supplier.
on, on one, uh, monopoly in that field. Yeah. You want to have a choice as the customer. Yeah. You want to, um, have the freedom to fly, uh, to a gas station ABC in space in
the future.
Uh, If you, uh,
take the decision to go for a
refueling,
[00:19:40] Christian_2: uh, strategy.
[00:19:41] Christian_1: But
of course,
um,
refueling is.
Probably only
something, especially
in the beginning, for very expensive, um, satellites in geostationary orbit, I, uh, as of
today, I would have some doubts, um,
that it would work. makes economically sense
to do in orbit refueling, for instance, in low orbit. So in low orbit, the assets need to be replenished
more often.
You need to have more satellites, um, to, do, um, your,
um, to fulfill your coverage needs,
yeah, for communication applications, for Earth observation, yeah, and you need too many satellites.
So,
um, for that reason, it makes more sense to
Replenish your satellites,
um,
after a few years rather than conducting, um,
expensive
refueling missions where you have to fly
to each and every satellite.
The effort, I think, would not justify the cost
and, um,
or
the
benefit would not justify the cost in the very beginning.
[00:20:43] Markus: Is satellite technology, of course we're talking about a variety of different satellite uses, but are the costs generally coming down? Because it seems like the constellations that Elon Musk is putting up into orbit on a daily basis in the dozens and hundreds and thousands, they're just throwaway pieces, throwaway hardware.
It seems like they're very cheap. So I. Is that technology in general coming down? Because you're mentioning it doesn't really make sense to refuel. Um, so, so where, where do we stand here?
[00:21:21] Christian_1: That's a
very good
question
which cannot
be that easily answered, yeah,
because what we see currently in the market is
that, I
mean, for a very long time we have seen that the size of the satellites was
going down, yeah, that was basically the advent
of small satellites,
so to speak. Big. But over the last years, uh, we
have
witnessed that, uh, even though um, satellite builders
uh, have the chance to
take advantage of miniaturization, et cetera, and of the usage of a commercial off a shelf,
um, components, et cetera, uh, they have reached.
basically the limits what you can achieve in terms of, um, usability
with small satellites. I mean, we have sent small satellites to
the moon,
to Mars, uh,
to deep space.
Yeah. But,
um, if you,
um, have
more ambitious missions for
Earth observation, communications,
you have certain, um, uh,
limits, limitations, and these limitations are set
by physics.
And, uh, you have to, uh,
go then for
larger satellites, and
that's what we see. So. So, we can save costs. Okay. Still, you can use a commercial off the shelf, but, uh, a main, you know,
um, lever here is, mass
production. Yeah. Automatization in the production.
[00:22:49] Christian_2: And, um,
[00:22:51] Christian_1: What you're asking is basically,
um, one very.
Um, difficult
question,
uh, for all the constellation operators out there. Are they, you know,
in a position to close their business case in
the long run? Because at
the
end of the day, you have to ask yourself, okay, you
have to, Um, finance, the design and development phase, the production phase, you have to finance lounge when you are operating
this constellation for several years and you have to make your profit down the road.
So, and
the question is, um, is the
outcome still financial
attractive enough
to
convince uh,
future investors to
finance, you know, the second
generation
of satellites, question mark.
And, uh, interestingly enough, um, Elon Musk, uh, twitted a few years ago, I don't know which kind of mood he was, uh, uh, even, uh,
he
had some doubts concerning,
you know, the viability of the business case of Starlink.
And I asked myself, uh, was
this a kind of attempt to shy off,
you know, Other constellation operators in the communication
business and their investors,
because
if he has doubts to close a business case on Starlink, and I mean, he's in the best position to do that.
He has
its own launch capacity. He uh, has
a no, uh, knowhow
and
the industrial means to mass produce satellites at, uh, little cost.
Yeah. And
ef if he has still doubts the close of business case, I mean, what shall the other competitors, uh, do or say
about
this?
Yeah. And, um,
I don't know whether it
was, you know, uh,
maneuver, again,
to shy
off
the others or whether, these doubts
were
justified.
[00:24:40] Christian_2: Um, there were certain sources which claimed, okay, that last year was, you know, the first year When
[00:24:46] Christian_1: Starlink was profitable.
I mean that is something what we cannot, you know,
verify
because
as you know, SpaceX is a
private company so they are not obliged to
publish any numbers. Yes, so it's a
box in essence, but one can only you know, estimate
Yeah. What's, uh, going on in, in, the company
Yeah. And, uh, one can only estimate how uh, expensive
it is to launch with satellites.
Yeah. But, uh, from what we know from,
uh, for instance, other Constellation operator, such
as one web, uh, they had a heart. time. you
know, uh, to, uh, um, arrive at the required unit costs for the first, um, satellite generation. Yeah. And, um,
my understanding that was among the reasons why we
went through chapter 11,
uh,
at some
point in, in the company history.
[00:25:39] Markus: I'm just wondering from my lay person's perspective, I'm just wondering where all this is headed, where all this ends, because even the limitless space of outer space is limited. So we, we just seem to be getting. the hang of constellation production and, um, and satellite production and, and, and getting cargo and freight into orbit.
So we seem to be getting comfortable with bringing matter into orbit. Into orbit, but orbit is limited. So where is all this headed? Because we already spoke about space debris. We have no viable solution, how to clean up dead hardware floating out there. So the question is, are we headed toward disaster?
Because there is a natural limit to all of this that we're doing. No matter how fantastic the business model behind it is. So how, from your perspective, how do you react to this as an investor?
[00:26:58] Christian_1: Yeah.
Um, I, I think, um. We haven't
uh, reached the limits yet.
Yeah.
Uh, but as you,
um, said rightly, we're,
um, on a not sustainable
path. Yeah.
Um,
but, um, if we think of, um, you know, all the decisions
and actions
taken by, um, satellite operators, I mean, if they,
um, uh, fail to, um, Yeah, find a way
to use
their orbits,
you know, in a sustainable manner,
They will dig
their own grave
here. Yeah.
And,
um, that's something they cannot
uh, afford.
So, it's in their own interest, you know, to assure.
Uh, but they behave
in a responsible manner.
uh, in, in the same time, um, since, you know, space became the
ultimate high ground also for various military applications and that we are, you know, from a geopolitical point of view, not in the best, you know,
position to, uh,
yeah, to, to find agreements.
[00:28:03] Christian_2: uh,
[00:28:04] Christian_1: agreements between, you know,
the leading space nations, um,
to, to, uh, behave
more reasonable. Yeah.
Um,
we can only hope you know that all the individual actors, will,
um, you know, act in the best interest of a sustainable usage of space.
Um, Otherwise, it, will end up in a situation that certain orbits
will be, you know, not usable
any longer for a very long time
until we decide to afford, you know, a massive
cleanup
mission or
something like that. But the question would be who, should be accountable for this and who should finance it. Yeah.
Um, I mean, if you think of all the,
Uh, debris removal companies
out there, um, I mean,
the
question is who will be the customer
of them in the future, right?
So uh, they have always, you know, a strong, um,
dual use exposure in my
understanding.
[00:29:10] Christian_2: Exactly.
[00:29:13] Markus: It's like on earth, um, who is responsible for the trash we're leaving on our roadsides? Who is responsible for the cans and, and waste people just keep, it's, it's the same, same problem. It's the human problem.
[00:29:30] Christian_1: Exactly. It's our, unfortunately, our human nature. Yeah. And we all complain if we
find
a plastic bag, you know, uh, beach, yeah, but, um, yeah, financing, uh, uh,
ocean cleanup mission is also something, uh,
what we haven't done yet. Um,
[00:29:52] Markus: Christian, I cut you short with too many questions. So were these the major projects that you think? Not only think that you're focusing on with your investments.
[00:30:05] Christian_1: I
would
add a few
things.
So, um, you mentioned already,
um,
the
congestion
in space. Yeah.
And,
um,
[00:30:17] Christian_2: Uh,
[00:30:18] Christian_1: see a
growing number of satellites and in the past, you know, it was like, okay, um, ground operators were in charge of all the operations in space. That is something we cannot longer
[00:30:31] Christian_2: do, yeah, it's
[00:30:32] Christian_1: because the number of satellites
have
outgrown, you know, the means of, you know, manual control, etc. So we see uh, growing interest in, you know,
autonomy. And
capabilities which allow, um, satellites
to
be operated in an autonomous manner.
The rise of AI will, uh,
contribute to that.
And in the same time, uh, we need to think of
solutions,
uh, to, um,
yeah, enhance
the onboard, um, processing
power. And, uh, since this is also
uh, strong,
um, consumer
of electrical power.
We need also to think of, okay, how can we, uh,
provide more power to our satellites? As you know, uh,
power and productive satellites is produced by, um, solar panels, yeah? And, And, the question is always,
okay, how
can we, uh, show
that even small satellites have enough power to fulfill their,
um, energy, um,
[00:31:37] Christian_2: uh, consumptive missions?
And, um,
[00:31:40] Christian_1: D Cube, for instance,
one of my portfolio companies,
um, uh, came around with a solution to, um,
structures for solar
panels to afford, um, even small
satellites, um, to fulfill their power and remissions. So it means the surface of the small satellite. I don't know if it's a CubeSat, but the surface itself is a solar panel.
Yeah, typically if you take, a small satellite, a CubeSat, the surface
area Is limited To, the size
of a satellite. So, and, not all the, surface areas are pointing towards the sun. So
it limits
your, power
production means dramatically.
But
if you
have a solar panel, yeah. Uh, and
if you can store it during launch,
um,
which is, uh, by far larger
than the surface area
of your main, uh, satellite body, you can, uh, produce, uh,
more power compared to what
you
could produce with just
the surface area
of your main satellite body.
And there are different means.
I mean, I have to, um, Um, um, find means to attach such a panel to, uh, a small
satellite body, body, uh, and Decubed came around
with new
ideas, uh, uh, like origami structured, um,
panels, uh, which can
be installed in a small
volume, uh, and which allow, um, small satellites to
fulfill,
um, even energy, um,
[00:33:15] Christian_2: needs.
[00:33:18] Markus: Could that also feed back to technologies needed on earth? So I guess there could be a dual use and you, and sometimes, or very often investments in niche applications can scale and grow. spill into different worlds also. So maybe this kind of, um, solar efficiency approach can have some scaling application on earth also, which would be beneficial to your portfolio, portfolio, I guess, as an investor.
[00:33:59] Christian_1: Yeah,
um, honestly, um, if I think, you know, of unit economics sit down on earth, I don't see it. Yeah. But, um, what you have outlining here is, um, I mean,
the right way to go
for, uh, many, um, uh, companies. Um,
yeah. I
mean, um, if you are interested, um, to do something
in deep
space. or there were even companies, um, uh, aiming to produce, um, solar
cells
on the moon.
Yeah. I
think Mana Electric from Luxembourg
was, um, one company, um, um, with
a plan to do that. Yeah. Um,
their initial approach was like, okay, um,
Producing
solar cells on the moon is a tall order, yeah, before we do that, that's our long term vision, we try
to do that in the desert here
on earth, yeah, we say, okay, the efficiency of these solar cells is not as high as, the solar cells which I, you know,
produced. Produced
in
a clean environment
with
um, everything perfectly calibrated, but we can reproduce them,
uh, for a fraction of,
uh, uh, classical approaches or cost. Yeah.
And, um, that is a way
to
um, reduce the risk for your mission.
Yeah.
And
to,
um, generate revenues yeah, down
the road,
uh, while
you're still aiming
for
the
ultimate mission to do something, you know, on the surface of the moon.
And there were also other companies, um, um,
I forgot the name of one
company
which was in
the
um, robotic segment, uh, they, um, Offworld was the name.
Um, Offworld um, was um, about to build robotics,
uh, robotic systems for mining
applications. First
here on earth. You know, because, um, the,
um,
working conditions for workers, you know, if you have a diamond mine or so, a thousand meters under the surface of earth, yeah, it's, uh, the, um, conditions are really harsh, you know, the temperature is really high.
And if you can, uh,
demonstrate
that you can do basically the same job with a robotic system, yeah, um, you can already retire many risks, which you see, uh, in space later on. And since on the surface of the moon, even though you have to realize you have vacuum, you
have radiation, you have
a different
thermal environment, but still
it's a system which has either to work on
its own, yeah, now by means of autonomy
or,
um,
remotely controlled.
[00:36:45] Markus: Fantastic. Christian, where do you get your portfolio candidates from? I mean, like you, you, you have to be on the road, I mean, like all the time to scout for interesting projects or where do you get those new concepts from? How do you find them?
[00:37:06] Christian_1: yeah, um, I mean, um,
we have close
ties to, um, all the
leading
research institutes,
like, um,
Fraunhofer
German
Aerospace Center, DLR here in
Germany, Max Planck Institute.
Um,
but we also
have, um, good relationships
with all the
leading, um, universities uh, here in Germany, but also, um, due to,
alumnis in, in across Europe
And, um,
yeah,
it's it's a really important to, um, this is all the relevant conferences. Yeah.
And
our aim is to be, um, you know, the first institutional investor, yeah, so, uh, as soon as, you know,
a group
of founders.
uh, stake, uh. decision to set up company we would
like next to them, yeah? That is what we're aiming for, yeah?
In
order
to
um, assure
that, you know, they
find the right partner from
the very beginning,
uh, to get
to their
company financed,
yeah?
So
uh, yes, uh, we um, Uh, you know, we spend many days on the road uh, on an
annual basis, but, uh, in the same time we have to take care of our own portfolio
and, uh, yeah, word of mouth
is
also, uh, supporting our mission. Yeah. If, uh,
we do a good job
with our founders,
you
know, uh,
they,
uh, uh,
introduce us to new founders
and that
is, uh, also an advantage.
[00:38:36] Markus: I'm just wondering, I don't know if it's different in Germany, but in Austria, um, research institutions, institutes, scientists do not have, do not always have a real understanding that what they do is market worthy. Because of course, most of the time they're in, in fundamental research and they're not like really interested in doing anything else than what they're being paid for and what their passion is and that is research.
So, and, and there's, this is a huge gap to have an understanding what you do. It's valuable in a different place in the world. So how do you get them to understand that
[00:39:28] Christian_1: Yeah. That's, uh, very, um,
Um,
difficult topics, so to speak. Why so?
Uh,
first and
foremost, uh,
we need
more university or research institute, uh, spin offs, All right. So, uh, I mean, if we have, uh, uh, if we have a
high rank in the patent ranking on a global level,
uh,
it's good for our ego, yeah, but it won't
help our
economy, so to speak.
So what we need to do is we need to have more technology transfers. We need to assure that, um,
all the, uh, patents
which have been filled are
commercialized. And the question is how to do that.
Um,
I mean,
there are many, uh, research
institutes out there and, uh, they, they, already
understand
that and its need. and the question is if you, um,
have
this discussions
with researchers, um, the question which arises very quickly, are these also good founders,
you
know,
Are they just, you know, interested, you know, to check
the box because,
you know, their organization they're working for
is asking for it,
yeah, uh, you know,
or is motivating them, yeah,
uh, to, to,
assure that, you
know, to a certain level, um, they
uh, commercialize,
um, um, their research, uh, question mark, yeah.
Because Our
major
point of concern is when it comes to, uh, researchers turning into
entrepreneurs, um, do
they
have, you know, the right motivation, the right skills
and, uh, most importantly,
something
what
we call a product market fit mindset.
Yeah. Because
in many cases, um, also here in Germany.
Um,
researchers
think, okay, um, or engineers,
my technology is so
great. Yeah. It's, it's,
uh, superior compared to what's already
on the market. Yeah.
And, uh,
we don't need to do any, you know, uh, market research,
Uh, or
interaction with customers, you know, as soon as the customer
will
see
what we
have developed here over the last years, uh, they will, uh, yeah,
come in and they will,
uh, order our technology and, uh,
our product in large numbers.
That's
unfortunately not, uh, the reality, yeah,
And,
and, um, in
order to overcome
this status quo, um, we, we need
to educate,
you know,
uh, researchers,
future founders,
uh, that it's
different. Um, some of them have already the right mindset, so there's no need to educate them.
Uh, but if you think
of, you know, uh, the curriculum
of the universities, yeah, it's Entrepreneurship was not always, you know, part of the academic education.
Luckily,
things have changed now. You know, many
technical
universities offer,
um, such, um, courses and, and this
is the right way to, um, to do it. Yeah. And,
uh, we
love to partner with
with universities. Yeah. Um, and we, um, give lectures on this topic
to to assure,
Uh,
that they have a good start
and that they have a fair chance, um, to to get a financing round closed, et cetera.
Um,
because without
these people, without these founders, we're nothing.
Yeah. I mean,
uh, this is our resource,
so
to speak.
Yeah. And,
and we need to assure that they will get, you know, the
best education and training,
which
is possible.
[00:43:13] Markus: One could say, should the scientist also be, as you mentioned, the good founder, the good entrepreneur? Maybe we're asking too much of some. And we're taking them away from what they're really good at, at great research. So it's, it's like the artist who is a very rarely good businessman or a businesswoman.
So the question is, can we think of something different? Can we come in with something else, maybe a completely different team to leave the scientists to what they do best?
[00:43:54] Christian_1: Um, uh, yes and no. So, um, um, if
we see, okay, that, um,
there's a solo
founder or that, you know, um, a small, um, founder's team, it's not the right skills from our point of view. Um, we can help them,
We can
help them to extend the management team with our network. Yeah. But it's, um,
not that
easy because, uh, the chemistry needs to be right.
You
know, they have to, um,
accept each other. Exactly.
yeah,
And,
um, the researchers
will always say,
okay,
but we have spent, you
know, so many years
on this. We are the ones with, uh, uh, uh, know how here,
Yeah. So why should we accept, uh,
external
boss, so
to
speak? Yeah. On
the other hand, if you, um, want, um,
to finance
such
a company,
I mean, there are also company builders out
there. Yeah.
Uh, they install a completely external management team,
but
at the end of the day, from, from our point of
view, the most successful,
you know, founding teams are those where, you know, the original founder is the one with the know how and is really burning for his idea,
as we say in Germany.
Yeah. At, um, who is, you know, the driving force.
behind it. And not just, you
know, a kind of arbitrary
team,
yeah, which is, uh,
which is being paid to do this mission,
yeah. Um,
so it
would lack the right soul or spirit, so to speak, yeah,
if it would
be, you know, a paid management
team. So
that
is at
least our
observation here.
And we need
to give, you know, the founders also with a strong academic background a fair chance to grow into
the new role.
And we have good examples in our portfolio that can work out.
[00:45:51] Markus: different topic. You had a different life before, uh, being or becoming an investor and that different life was also connected with a fantastic mission together with DLR, if I'm not mistaken, the mascot mission. It was all about landing on an asteroid. It's So, we're in the same process as we speak again now with, um, multiple asteroid encountering missions, um, the HERA mission, the DART mission, um, in the future, the Apophis mission, or RAMSIS I think it's called.
So, can you speak a little bit about that? that mission, uh, back in the day, the mascot mission, what it was about and why it was important. Um, yeah,
[00:46:45] Christian_1: Yeah,
sure. it away.
Yeah.
Um, I mean, um, as you might know, I start. my career with, the German Air Force, you know, and while
I was still an officer
with the Air Force,
I was following
[00:46:58] Christian_2: uh,
[00:46:59] Christian_1: Hayabusa mission one
very closely.
and as you might recall, the Hayabusa one team
was facing
many difficulties
with their
subsystems, so they barely managed to return to Earth with some asteroid samples.
So
it was a huge success.
And,
yeah, later on, they quickly
decided. to, set up a follow on mission, Hayabusa 2, and
they basically
figured out, okay, what were, you know,
the, The
difficulties phase during the first mission, and, and they addressed
all of
them. And in the same time, they invited,
you know,
international,
um, partners
to make a significant contribution
and, uh, DLR, um, or sport enough.
Um, to make a contribution
And I don't know whether this
is, um, really
true, but,
uh, from what
I know, they asked first JPL,
uh, to contribute Elendor, uh, But uh, the development time was, according to my knowledge,
to short
for the colleagues from JPL,
So they say no
to
this opportunity and instead, um, a team formed by colleagues from DLR
and CNES, um, got, uh,
this flight opportunity
[00:48:15] Markus: That's crazy. I mean,
like, if JPL can pull it off, I mean, like, who else can?
[00:48:20] Christian_1: Yeah, exactly. And, um, this, uh, the
uh, mission,
uh, lead of a system lead, um, was, um, done by uh, newly formed Institute, for Institute of
Space Systems
in Bremen. And it was, uh, the mascot mission was among the first
flight
missions of this Institute. So, uh, luckily, Our team was,
um, formed by, um, former colleagues from the Rosetta Thiele mission especially, um, they helped us, you know, on the payload side. And uh, it was really um, mix
of very experienced Uh, colleagues. Yeah. In the same time, uh, there were many newbies uh, on
board. Yeah. And
I was the system
engineer
um, for
this mission. And
uh, it was a tall order.
Uh, But
uh, for
me, it was, you know, um, once in a lifetime opportunity
if you, uh, leave, uh, armed forces and get the chance
to become a system engineer for such a mission,
That was a very, um, big opportunity. And, um, I was not sure whether we will,
uh, succeed, uh, because we had
only 18 months from the beginning. So, yeah, that was the beginning of, phase C until, you know, delivery date, to the launch pad.
But
we succeeded. And, um, yeah, um,
once
everything was launched, you know,
in 2014, um, there were not too many things we could do, uh,
you
know, um,
uh,
work
on follow
on missions.
We could, um,
send
up, uh,
new software
versions, uh, think of, okay, what to do once we arrived,
[00:49:53] Christian_2: uh, would arrive at the asteroid, because basically
[00:49:56] Christian_1: if you fly to an asteroid, you don't have too many information
about,
um,
you know, your
target. Uh, there were, you know, we were dealing with high level of uncertainties.
We forgot to, okay, what is the rotational axis? Yeah. Uh, what
is the day night ratio? Yeah.
uh, so it's
basically like
[00:50:15] Christian_2: you, um,
[00:50:16] Christian_1: plan to go for a camping vacation.
Yeah.
But you don't know whether you will end up in the Arctic
or in the
tropics
or in the desert. Yeah. Um,
in terms
of, okay,
uh, how,
um, should your thermal system be designed?
Yeah. You have to deal
with, uh, different, you
know, um,
potential thermal regimes.
Yeah. And
you need to assure
that the system which you launch is You know, um, several years before you have this knowledge, uh, works in different or under different conditions. And that was, um, a, a big challenge
for us, but it worked in 2018,
uh, 3rd of October,
uh, the landing occurred and it was a picture scenic
mission.
And would you have
asked me
before
whether
it will work out like
[00:51:04] Markus: I never. So you wouldn't, doubts, but, uh, yeah,
so you wouldn't have placed your bets on that mission.
[00:51:11] Christian_1: Probably,
uh, not.
[00:51:14] Markus: Um, I cannot recall the actual mission, but I remember there was a landing attempt on an asteroid somewhere. And it turned out, because we know so little about asteroids and asteroid surfaces, that it turns out that what seemed to be a rock solid surface was very squishy and, and even like a liquid. And so the lander threatened to sink, to, to go under on that surface.
Can you recall what that mission was?
[00:51:49] Christian_1: I, I
know um, what you're talking about. It's about, um, um, um,
It's
like, um,
if you think of an asteroid,
like, um, cloud of small rocks,
yeah.
And, and, uh, basically, um,
[00:52:07] Markus: so it's not, no
solid. it's not solid.
[00:52:09] Christian_1: Yeah. It can happen.
uh, that, uh,
what appears to be an asteroid is basically, um, rock formation, you know, formed of, uh, uh, small rocks.
Yeah. And, uh, the only way to learn.
Uh,
how, um, you know, uh, it's built is to fly to it and to learn more about it.
Yeah. And, um, yeah,
what
I learned from this mission is, um,
If you know one
asteroid, you know, only one
asteroid, you know, you have, uh, uh, the, the, the spread
And
the diversity is, really high. And, uh, we need to,
uh, conduct more missions,
probably
more efficient, maybe with the help of startups, uh, to learn
more about them because, um, As you know,
asteroids are a potential threat,
um, for
us, but in the same time,
um,
they might be a potential,
um,
resource for future space missions
[00:53:09] Christian_2: um,
[00:53:11] Christian_1: with
[00:53:11] Christian_2: um, Um, rare metals, for instance, and with
[00:53:17] Christian_1: ice deposits, which can
be maybe
utilized for ISRU,
[00:53:22] Christian_2: um,
[00:53:22] Christian_1: missions, so, I
think it's paramount to learn more about it. Speaking of which, when, when are we starting? Because we've been talking quite a bit about asteroid mining, um, in, on earth now. So it's a part of science fiction and then you get to hear it now and then, but when are we actually really starting to do it? Are there any, is there research going on? Are there any mining projects on the horizon?
Yes,
[00:53:51] Markus: you placing your bets on asteroid? On, on an asteroid rare earth mining.
[00:53:55] Christian_1: well, um,
coming, uh, from this space branch, I'm, um, kind of, um, skeptical, yeah?
Uh, I mean, uh, there were already, um, heavily financed
uh, startups
ten years ago, active in that
field, namely,
uh, Planetary
Resources and Deep Space Industries.
Um, They are
basically out of business,
Yeah. And, um,
it's, you have to deal with different challenges.
Of course, you have
to, uh, lower, um, cost for, um, uh, launch, uh, for in space transportation, et cetera. Uh,
but, uh, the most difficult challenge
which needs to be addressed is how do you interact with the asteroid itself?
[00:54:41] Christian_2: So how can
[00:54:42] Christian_1: Could you potentially extract, you know,
um,
the materials, the resources you're interested in?
I mean, if you're talking
about,
um, volatiles, yeah,
you might, uh, find
means to, to heat up, um,
the, um, asteroid with,
um, solar power, for instance, yeah, and, uh, you find a way to, to
collect, um,
um, the, the volatiles with, uh, cold trap, um,
for instance, uh, this is the concept, uh, company in
the
U. S. is working on,
they
call their their
spacecraft the Space Bee.
I have no insights
as of today about
their funding status or about
the development status, uh, but, um, I think it was
a day or
two days ago that Astroforge announced
another
financing
round and Astroforge,
for instance, is working.
you know, on
another
uh,
asteroid
mining mission. So
they
follow also a stepwise approach.
Yeah. First,
um, of
all, it's
always important to to get more information about the um, target asteroid, yeah, to learn more about
uh, the properties. And
um, you
have to get an understanding, okay, Be a potential means to
extract,
um,
the, the rare metals, but you have to understand
we're
talking about, um, an environment where you
have basically, depending on the size of asteroid, no
gravity.
So as soon as you
uh, try
to, um, yeah, um,
do
some mechanical action, you
will, um,
realize
[00:56:21] Christian_2: there's counteraction. Counteract action. exactly.
[00:56:24] Christian_1: And, uh, Isaac Newton will say hello to you. Do you find yourself again in, uh, higher
orbit? So, uh, around this astronaut? So that is the main difficulty. I mean, uh, if we depict, uh, you know, um, space mining, um,
there are some pictures, you know, in the web
where you see,
um. trucks
or mining machines, which we know, you know, from, um,
coal mines here on
earth,
you know, on the, placed on the moon, on the
moon, you have, uh,
uh,
relevant gravity.
Uh, that's not the case on the vast majority of asteroids. So,
and, um, my understanding, if you're interested not to
digest the entire asteroid, yeah, uh, to extract a few tons of, the, the, um, materials you're interested in,
you
need to come up with a.
totally different chemical processes. Um,
I
don't know, maybe nanobots or things like that.
Yeah. So, uh, technology, which we
currently have, doesn't
have
uh, don't have in our
disposal. Yeah. So,
so
if you
ask me,
[00:57:31] Christian_2: uh,
[00:57:32] Christian_1: finally,
okay.
um, are we years away? I would say we are decades
away. Really interesting. But it's a, it's potentially a huge opera, so it's a huge bet because it could be so, I mean like, just imagine. Just investing a hundred billion or a trillion in research and technology, but getting a hundred trillion back. Um, because, uh, I can't remember the celestial body, but a couple of weeks ago, um, I read somewhere that they discovered a celestial body in our solar system that has an 11 mile strong diamond layer.
[00:58:17] Markus: So, I mean, like, uh, you got all the diamonds supply. You will ever need on that celestial body. So all jokes aside, there's a huge opportunity, but getting there is maybe the challenge. It's, it's pretty much similar to what is happening now in the, in the AI sector. Huge investments necessary in order to get somewhere.
[00:58:41] Christian_1: Yeah,
that's,
um,
uh, that's, um, absolutely true. And you should
not ignore, you know, the market reaction,
uh,
towards, uh, such an increase
on the supply side.
Yeah. Exactly.
[00:58:53] Christian_2: uh,
[00:58:53] Christian_1: the colleagues from the Colorado School of Mines,
they
did some research
on, on that. Yeah.
You
cannot, um, you know,
uh, count,
you know,
on, on, uh, price
stability as soon as you have tapped into such a vast, uh, you know, uh, resource, yeah.
Absolutely. So that means if you mine a golden moon, you are at the same time destroying gold price
Yeah, you have to
[00:59:21] Christian_2: have, and to, uh,
[00:59:22] Christian_1: feed the market very carefully,
[00:59:26] Markus: over
millennia. Speaking like, it's like, you know, during the oil crisis in the seventies, you know, you have to control
[00:59:34] Christian_1: how
much
oil is, entering the market. And, you have then, the power of the price control mechanism, so to speak.
[00:59:47] Markus: now, branching out a little bit into the future also, because you said you need to place your strategies very carefully. Where do you see the space industry headed? What's, um What's the omega point that we're headed toward? I keep saying on the show, almost on every single episode, that, um, perhaps we're starting to become an interplanetary species.
We're starting to leave planet Earth, perhaps because we're discovering the technological necessities and we're getting, we're getting ever more, um, used to leaving Earth. And because we can do it as Elon Musk. Pretty much demonstrated with the Falcon rockets and perhaps in the future with Starship. But what is, what's your take?
Um, because you're, you're pretty much to me, you're a crystal ball, so to say, because you're, you're very knowledgeable and very well informed, um, when it comes to anything that goes together with the space industry.
[01:00:53] Christian_1: Yeah, I
[01:00:54] Markus: Where are we headed?
[01:00:55] Christian_1: that's the
driving
question is,
[01:00:58] Christian_2: um, um,
[01:01:00] Christian_1: who's
sitting in the driver's seat, right?
[01:01:03] Christian_2: Um,
[01:01:04] Christian_1: I
mean, if I think back of
the situation, in the late nineties, you know, we
were stuck
in low Earth orbit,
[01:01:12] Christian_2: um,
[01:01:13] Christian_1: the
ISS,
uh, was delayed,
um,
for different reasons, yeah.
And
only with the advent of new space and new space companies, we have seen, um, relevant progress, yeah.
Um,
so that
gave me hope.
Yeah. uh, honestly, uh, when I was, uh, you know, uh, uh, 20 years
old, some and, um, I think ultimately, we're heading towards that direction. I mean, that is, um, also, uh, Elon Musk's, uh, goal, yeah. Lifetime goal, so to speak. Um,
but, um, we should not
count on, uh, space agencies in my understanding.
Yeah. And, um,
if, if
you find a way.
Um,
to show that
you can
make
money,
um, while you're heading towards Mars,
uh, you're in the best position
uh, to uh, fulfill this vision or to turn
this
vision into reality, yeah? And
um, currently,
or as of today, I'm not sure. You know,
all the customers,
um,
who are paying, you know,
for all the services,
name them,
communication,
Earth observation,
P&
T solutions, they are here on
Earth.
So
the question is, uh, when will we see, you know, a tipping point that we will make more business with the space industry? in space rather than here on
Earth. And we haven't
reached this tipping point yet.
Um,
what, might be
a contributor is,
you know,
is what we call the great power competition
between the US and China.
So they are in a kind
of second space race.
Um,
the moon or Cislunar is considered to be the ultimate high ground.
That means, um, if you have, um,
the
possibility.
For
instance, to
extract,
um, lunar
ice deposits and
to produce fuel, which allow you then
to refuel your satellites in
cislunar and geostationary orbit,
which make you maybe,
um, independent from supplies from
Earth because, you you all the orbits in between are crowded, you're in a superior position.
And, um,
I
I think, um,
if you want
to build it in a very economic manner, a lunar station, for instance, which does this job,
um,
you have to rely on commercial partners. And that is something what, um, um, Colleagues from the
US are aiming for, in my understanding. Uh, they don't want to do and build
everything by themselves.
Uh, they want industry
to, uh, come up with these capabilities, yeah. And of course, they appear as an anchor customer, but, um, everything what,
uh, will
be created next to it, kind of adjacent, um, industry, yeah, um,
will
contribute to this very first
step
beyond, our, um,
lower orbit or,
uh, geostationary orbit
con.
Yeah. And
from them, we need to see, I mean, um, how, um, far or how, how long it'll take us, um,
humanity to make the next step to, to, to mass. Yeah.
Um,
[01:04:36] Markus: Would you want to go, if someone asked you?
[01:04:40] Christian_1: uh, of course. I'm ready
to
go. Um, if somebody
uh, pays uh, the ticket or invites me,
uh, I would definitely go. Yeah,
[01:04:53] Markus: I was pretty quick, um, because, your reply. Because I could imagine that there is initially excitement, but at some point When you're realizing that you're confined to a very small area on Mars and that Mars in fact wants to kill you. Question is, how exciting can it still be?
[01:05:22] Christian_1: absolutely. And, um,
I, think, um, if we, um,
discuss, you know, the future of humanity
on another
planet. Um,
I, I think we have touched so far only the tip
of the iceberg.
Yeah. It's not just about surviving.
Uh, it's
about, you know,
um,
staying
there and reproducing, yeah, and, and, um, uh, think about
it, what we'll,
we'll make uh, with uh, embryo, with, with,
a baby, if it, uh, grow up in a
different
gravitational
environment.
So, um,
I
think, uh, we haven't, uh, done enough research
on that yet, yeah,
uh, to discuss all the consequences,
yeah, uh, would we be required to go
back
to fly
back to Earth to reproduce?
um, because if we
reproduce on an Now the planet, on
mo, on, on, on, on
mass, uh, here, I
mean, the, the, uh, baby, I don't know whether it
would be a survival, uh, or it would survive,
you know, from the bones, et cetera on earth.
[01:06:30] Markus: That's very, very tricky. We had, um, two representatives of Spaceborne here on the show, um, a Dutch company, um, doing research in exactly that field. And from what I heard so far and what we discussed, it's Extremely tricky on multiple levels. First of all, you cannot really test this kind of, or you can't do research because you're doing research with human sperm and human eggs turning into something weird, maybe, usually something weird.
So it's ethically not viable. And, um, from animal testing, what they say is the odds that some ill formed consequence comes out of this is still very, very high. So conception is, is, A huge issue. Birth may be an issue. So it seems like, it seems like we're not meant to procreate somewhere else. Of course, this is a non scientific approach towards, towards this problem.
Cause maybe no one means us to do anything at all in the first place. But it seems very tricky.
[01:07:59] Christian_1: Yeah. But in, in the same time, um, I mean, um,
[01:08:04] Christian_2: uh, we accept, you know, um, our genetic code as it is, um, you know, uh, what you're describing is true. Yeah. but, uh, there are also some voices out there, yeah,
[01:08:18] Christian_1: who
say, okay, um,
Before
we start, you know, to work on, spacesuits, yeah, we should maybe start to think of working on our, uh, genome, yeah, and, and that's a big ethic question, yeah, um, maybe, um, we need to, uh, adapt in a different way.
to this new environment. Yeah,
But that is then a totally different discussion. Yeah. And, um, yeah,
it's,
it's, um, difficult to predict, um, At which point in time we will have
such a discussion.
[01:08:53] Markus: It's really interesting because currently, um, someone pointed me a couple of weeks ago, someone pointed me to Andy Weir, the author, uh, of The Martian. And so I read, um, Project Hail Mary, which was fantastic. And currently I'm reading Artemis and Artemis is all about, I don't know. Have you read any?
[01:09:16] Christian_2: No, no, no.
[01:09:17] Markus: I can highly recommend.
It's hard science fiction, so it's science fiction you can actually draw science from, and really, you as an engineer, it could be really interesting. But, while I'm mentioning that, on the Artemis, Um, in the Artemis story, there is this woman who was born on, on the moon, so she never developed a skeleton that would be viable on Earth.
So she would never ever go back to Earth because she wouldn't be able to live a normal life on Earth. So this is maybe already the first step towards becoming something else, becoming a different, we would be the same species technically, but we would be we would have found a different niche to evolve into, maybe.
[01:10:11] Christian_1: Yeah, it would be a new branch. And um, um,
first
time I
uh,
encountering this, this, um, topic was
um, in
the early 2000s. I
think, um, if you read, um, First Landing written by Robert Subrin, Zebrin?
um, It
was about,
um, first, uh, human mission to Mars, and, uh,
a female
astronaut, pregnant, and, uh, well, um, basically they decided to stay on Mars, Yeah.
Um, because abortion was not an option for her. Yeah. And, uh, she and
the
astronaut
father, uh,
yeah, stay together on Mars and, form basically the nucleus
of a new civilization.
Highly recommendable book
[01:11:01] Markus: and then you got your Adam and Eve story starting all over again.
[01:11:08] Christian_1: in
essence. Yeah. Idol,
[01:11:11] Markus: um, you mentioned you would go to Mars, um, without giving it too much of a thought, because you feel like that would be your thing. Um, going to Mars takes about a couple of months, I think, with current space. Space, um, craft technology. So, um, I assume that could be getting slightly boring at some point to just get there.
So my question to you, what's the one piece of music you would want to see on a playlist to accompany you on that journey? journey and to gear you up. The reason I'm asking is because I'm asking that question every guest on the show because we have a Spotify playlist. It's the playlist for the aspiring space traveler and each guest gets to contribute one of their favorite tunes to that playlist.
What's yours?
[01:12:11] Christian_1: Um, Billy Idol
can stop the fire.
[01:12:16] Markus: Fantastic. Um, and one last question. This place, um, here is the Space Cafe Podcast and it's a coffee place, so to say, and now and then you go into coffee places to energize yourself by having an espresso. Now I'm challenging you to share an espresso for the mind with me, with the audiences. What could be an energizing espresso for the mind?
You would like to share on whatever kind of topic you want to pick.
[01:12:55] Christian_1: I think, uh,
given
what we discussed
so far, uh, we should, um,
ask
all of us, okay, Um, What
our desired
future in space,
Yeah. And who should be in charge of, uh, you know,
um, shaping this future in space?
Shall we leave it to
uh, politicians,
to
space
agencies, to billionaires,
um,
to, to, um, investors, yeah? to founders? yeah? Should we ask the general public
Yeah. To vote on, on, a topic?
Yeah. Uh, Should it be a random
thing? Yeah. 'cause we don't care whether we make progress or not.
Yeah. And, and, uh, this is something what
is not clear to me yet.
Yeah. And, um, that
would be my espresso for you
and
for the audience.
[01:13:49] Markus: Fantastic. Christian, thank you so much. This was really inspiring.
[01:13:54] Christian_1: Thank
you for having me and, uh, yeah, have a nice evening.
[01:13:58] Markus: Thank you.
And that's a wrap, my friends, on today's Cosmic Journey with Christian Tziag. What a ride it's been, um, at least for me. It's mind blowing to hear the investor's perspective of things from those guys who are a part of Invested, literally invested in something and who should know what's going on in the world so as to not lose whatever they're investing.
If you liked the show and if you like what we're doing here on this little planet called Space Cafe Podcast, Why don't you share and subscribe, you're already subscribed, but why don't you share our little planet with someone you feel like could be interested in what we're doing here, and for your personal needs.
Why don't you consider adding Billy Idol's We Can't Stop the Fire to your personal playlist, like the one we have on Spotify, the Aspiring Astronauts playlist for your personal future journey to the stars or the next space race. Make the choice. You call the shots. Until next time, my friends, keep looking up, stay curious, and remember, in the vast expanse of the universe.
Of space, the only limit is our imagination. This is Markus signing off for today from the Space Cafe Podcast at Astra, my friends. Thanks for sticking around. Bye bye.