The Outer Space Cultural Evolution Lab: Aoife Van Linden Tol on the Explosive Power of Art in Space Exploration

Aoife Van Linden Tol
Space Artist and Visionary

Episode Summary:

In this explosive episode of the Space Café Podcast, we delve into the fascinating intersection of art, space, and planetary healing with renowned space artist Aoife Van Linden Tol. Known for her bold approach to creation and destruction, Aoife explores how the vastness of the cosmos can inspire solutions to Earth's most pressing challenges. From the power of artistic expression to reimagine humanity’s role in the universe, to the potential of space as a canvas for healing our broken planet, this conversation invites you to rethink the role of creativity in addressing existential questions.

Quotable Insights:

• “Sometimes things need to blow up before you can create something truly new.”
• “Space isn’t just a destination; it’s an endless source of inspiration for solving problems here on Earth.”
• “Art is how we process the incomprehensible, and space is the ultimate canvas.”

Cosmic Timeline (Timestamps):

• [00:00:00] Introduction: Art, Destruction, and Cosmic Creativity
• [00:05:12] Aoife’s journey: From traditional art to space-inspired projects
• [00:12:34] The philosophy of destruction as a creative force
• [00:20:15] Cosmic art installations: Using the universe as a medium
• [00:30:42] Addressing Earth’s challenges through artistic innovation
• [00:40:11] Space as a mirror for humanity’s potential
• [00:50:27] What’s next for Aoife: Upcoming projects and aspirations
• [00:55:46] Music recommendation: Luminous Space by Jon Hopkins

Links to Explore:

• Aoife Van Linden Tol’s Portfolio: http://www.aoifevanlindentol.com/
• Space Art Projects: https://www.spaceartinitiative.org
• Related Resources: Art and Space Exploration Article
• Luminous Spaces by Jon Hopkins

Spread the Cosmic Love:

If this episode inspired you to see the universe in a new light, share it with your friends, family, and fellow stargazers. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Space Café Podcast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. For more cosmic conversations, follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter and subscribe to our newsletter at SpaceWatch.Global.

Let’s create, explore, and heal together—one cosmic idea at a time.

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Transcript

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Aoife van Linden Tol: [00:00:00] What I found with the space industry, it's really interesting, actually. They have. a way that they think about it. And if you say to them, you can't do that because that's not good, they'll go, well, okay, what else , what else do we do? If you come and say, okay, we should do things like this, they go, oh, okay, interesting. Let's have a look at it. So unfortunately the solution really, it has to come from outside quite often because their remit is science. Exploration. So they, they can't really do anything outside of their directives.

So I think ~what ~we're starting to see a realization that they want more expertise and to invite, artists to engage other, disciplines into the space industry to learn. And We need that spin in knowledge

Markus: Hello everyone, this is the Space Cafe Podcast, and I'm Markus. This time my friends, I did mess up. You know [00:01:00] what happened? I picked, during my recording with my guest, I picked the wrong microphone input, so I didn't pick that one. I picked a crappy one, uh, don't even know which one, and this resulted in pretty bad audio quality.

On my end, the good news, the audio quality of my guest on the other side is perfectly fine. And this is exactly what you're here for, so almost no harm done. Still, I deeply apologize, um, for the bad audio quality on my end. Today's episode, my friends, is a little bit of a personal one. Maybe it also resonates with you because let's be frank, all those global frictions we're experiencing these days, climate change, it can seem overwhelming.

To me at least. And so sometimes I feel like this is the moment where we deeply need fresh, new ideas. We need bold thinking. The usual suspects seem to not be able to deliver on those new, fresh ideas. So this is where we thought, hey, why [00:02:00] not listen to the ones who usually Challenge our status quo, who usually are, well, in the vicinity of being called troublemakers.

Rightly so, in a very positive sense. The artists, they challenge any status quo they are confronted with. They rip it apart, sometimes explode it, to put it back together in a completely new way. To challenge our perspectives and to imagine new possibilities. So my guest today, Aoife van Lintental, is such a troublemaker, and she uses space as a canvas for imagination.

To find solutions not only for space, down here, right now, for And if I open my eyes to the potential of creativity in bridging the disciplines, in rethinking, for example, sustainability, in rethinking what it means to be human, rethinking our humanity.

So if you [00:03:00] ever felt like you wanted to right now hit that reset button to reset everything Almost anything on earth. If you ever felt like you need hope, You want to sprinkle a little bit of cosmic perspective on your life. This is the right moment This is the right place today Van Linden Toll.

Let's go. Welcome to the show

Aoife van Linden Tol: Artists are very inquisitive and want to find different ways to express what we're thinking about at that time. And that's not necessarily that there's one mission. There might be underlying things. And I think as the older you get as an artist, the more you discover those underlying themes, you may discover them very early on.

Some artists do when they're in art school. I discovered some of mine in art school. And then later on, looking back, you realize that there are these reoccurring strands and somehow ties into a lot of the work you do, no matter what realm that's in. And I think the other is [00:04:00] that, you know, in the arts, you have a lot of small companies, you have a lot of small organizations and you kind of do everything, you know, you're doing a little bit of everything.

It took me a long time to say that I was a producer, a theater producer in the company that I was running Artful Badger because I just saw myself as a project manager maybe, or kind of somebody who just puts things together. You know, I didn't really put a name to it and it was somebody

Markus: Hmm.

Aoife van Linden Tol: said to me, look, you have to put a name to what you do.

This is what you're doing. That's the job role that you are actually fulfilling. as well as other roles, I was also making costumes and helping to, to you know, driving people, organizing, it was, it's so multifaceted, I think. We become these multi skilled people and sometimes we don't even realise that we're playing a certain role. Think, I think from that we then hop around within any of those. So, it [00:05:00] might be that I go on to say, okay, yes, I'm, I'm a theatre producer. I'm going to produce

Markus: Hmm.

Aoife van Linden Tol: theatre. I'm going to help, you know, create this for somebody else, maybe. Or it might be that I decide to design a whole set of masks, and start to think about the animal, you know, just start to think about that art form for a while,

Markus: Hmm.

Aoife van Linden Tol: And that expression for a while.

And then maybe I'll go on and do workshops for, for the community for a while, because that's part of my artwork as well. You know, you might create a piece that has a connection to, to your community, and then you kind of follow that path for a little while. And then as you get older, you can kind of swap and change them around and sort of pull them in and out as you wish. I

Markus: Is this, is this a good prerequisite for the current transformation of almost anything on this planet? To be [00:06:00] adaptable? To be dynamic. Do you think this is the moment for the artists?

Aoife van Linden Tol: Big question. I think it's always the moment for the artists, honestly, because the artists, and maybe this is the moment for the artists, I think particularly when there's a lot of change and a lot of challenging moments, because the artists reflect society and they reflect the questions, the big questions that we have about ourselves, about humanity, about the way that we behave towards each other. The artists are often the ones speaking out, the artists are often the ones oppressed, the artists are often the one Risking themselves to, to share certain that maybe can help, they hope can help, uh, society or, or communities or, you know, each other. And I think, I think maybe that feels that way because we are in, in that moment.

And I think, [00:07:00] Some people say, do artists change the world? And I, I say if they, if they didn't, then why was I arrested? If they didn't, why are they persecuted? Some of the first people to be persecuted when there's you know, when there's conflicts and stuff. So I, I think for me, it's not a question of do they, it's more a question of how. I think, I think that adaptability is also important and that inquisitiveness because they want to find out as much as possible. I did, I did one, they, artists get very obsessed by certain subjects that they're researching. So there's always, most artists that I know, not all, go through a huge process of research before, while they're working on a project and they'll really diverge all their thinking and then they'll converge it all again bring it into certain points that they want to make through the work. which means that artists are actually a community of incredibly [00:08:00] educated, not just trained in arts if they have gone to university and studied the arts, but even if they haven't, they're often highly researched and intellectual and critical, uh, people. There's a huge amount of critical thinking that goes on into arts. process. I think, for example, I did a whole piece of work around the badger call in, in the UK, which you might not have heard of, but were, a lot of those outbreaks of TB going on with cows and they wanted to blame the badgers and say the badgers were bringing TB to the farms. There wasn't a huge amount of scientific evidence for this.

Lots of other animals have TB and it's a lot of biosecurity on the farms that weren't working as well as they maybe could have. It's a very complicated issue, but I dove into that issue so deeply that I could tell you now how many buckets of Saliva a cow produces [00:09:00] every day. It's just such a random fact, but you know, we, we get this obsessiveness and we get this interrogation. We want to know the truth and, and we want to that within the work. And not, again, not everybody, but I think certain artists who have this kind of practice, I suppose.

Markus: You mentioned something that stuck with me. Artists express what's going on in the world. What is going on in the world as we speak? What's happening?

Aoife van Linden Tol: Okay. So I think we're seeing an increase in polarization. We're seeing a decrease in democracy. We're seeing an increase of misinformation and disinformation, fake news. We're seeing an increase in existential risks, AI, biological warfare, to name a few. And I think we're [00:10:00] In terms of the, the, the things that are maybe most scary in the world right now.

And I happen to be also working a lot in the misinformation space, uh, for the last three years. So I've been doing a lot of research around propaganda, misinformation, fake news, algorithms, particularly in the context of social media algorithms, attention economy. I think this is a really important aspect because regardless of what You know, whatever, whatever we choose to do in the world, we all need to know how to engage our critical thinking, how to find the truth, and at the moment, there's a lot of this idea of the truth is subjective, there's no such thing as the truth, the truth is whatever you feel, and it's kind of like, well, We actually do have some, depending on what you're talking about, we have some really good ways that we've, we've developed to try to get as close to the truth as we can. [00:11:00] And if we ignore those methodologies, then we do make truth this very subjective thing that, that anyone can manipulate and kind of just convince you. We go back to these kind of the, the times, uh, where, you know, You made someone believe you just by arguing with them, by convincing them. And this is how it was for Socrates, you know. They all stood in a room and just convinced each other. didn't have evidence, and evidence and scientific thought came from that, but it is no longer that. And we have to hold on to those things and try to make sure people value those things. Uh. These scientific methods, these methods that we have to, and also who to trust and, why to trust somebody, uh, or an information source.

I think this is really important. in terms of, I think, [00:12:00] The context of space, this is also

Markus: Yeah.

Aoife van Linden Tol: exciting thing happening at the moment we've got Earth orbit, a lot of changes happening. So as you're, as you know, we're looking towards the end of the International Space Station and the rise of commercial space stations. We're looking at Moon We're looking at habitats, we're looking at traveling to Mars, we're looking at deeper exploration into our solar, from our solar system. I think we're at the same time discovering so much more and exploring so much more and progressing so much more. And also, I think this is another connection between the arts and sciences. We're asking a lot of big questions the same. Who are we? Where are we? Why are we here? You know, this is the pursuit of science. If that wasn't a scientific question, then why would we be sending probes out to other, other outside the solar system? You know, we're exploring, we're trying to discover more about ourselves. [00:13:00] And art is a different way of doing that. It's maybe more based on What's inside of us and our connections between each other and, and the planet that we're on and, and, and our interpretation of, our cosmos rather than the data. again, artists will take data and they'll use it. There's also now, I think, a change in how artists are seen and engaged with. with space, with science, with other forms of other forms of industry or other domains of, of work or interest in that. Artists are now also valued as And not just, as I said, desk researchers, but also scientific researchers. Uh, I think you can see this particularly well in bioscience. And there's been quite a few art projects where artists have sent up a biological samples [00:14:00] and to see.

you know, going to happen and kind of discover what happened to them when they come back. So yeah,

Markus: What

does the artist do differently to the scientist? Because if you have an artist do biological experiments, In how far are they different to scientific inquiry?

Aoife van Linden Tol: I think they ask a broader questions. So I think the scientific questions are very finite and limited by certain conditions. So you might want to have a very specific condition so that you can identify a particular factor within your experiment. Whereas an artist may do something similar, but they're also using the investigation to explore more, emotional questions or sociological questions or political questions. And I think it's that inquiry into those other realms that [00:15:00] allows the artist to, that freedom, we have that freedom to do that in a sense as well as the scientific aspect feeding into

Markus: Like,

Aoife van Linden Tol: well.

Markus: like, but please do correct me if I'm going too far, but I'm trying to find an example. Like, for example, if you bring a fungus to the International Space Station, a scientist would do research for the pharmac, uh, pharma industry, for example. An artist would maybe also ask the question, how does the fungus feel in outer space?

Would that be like the difference between the two?

Aoife van Linden Tol: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I think so. And I think also what does it, what's the perspective of the mushroom? What is the perspective of this, uh, another being? What does it mean for that to be in space? You know, art, is also, domain of art, but also the domain, if we take [00:16:00] another living thing into space, it becomes the domain of that thing, that thing exists. And if we think about fungus, you know, fungus created our planet, our planet was absolutely covered in

Markus: Yes.

Aoife van Linden Tol: You know, unconceivable masses of fungus before it became anything else. So also the idea that we could be bringing something to space that was our planet. initial, you know, thing that sparked our own life is, is quite an interesting idea.

And maybe a kind of jumping off point for for people realizing that actually our existence came from, from these funguses and where did that come from? And

Markus: And

Aoife van Linden Tol: from a, a spore in a comet and, you know.

Markus: still, and still, I think they're still dominating our planet. Because underground, underneath, they are sort of the, the world wide web, as someone said, the world wide fungus web of [00:17:00] information flow between plants and, and, and microbes and what not. So still, I think, I think what this all does is it gives us, or it forces us to rethink our place in the world, because we think we're the center of it all, and we're doing a great job at pretending to be so as we're transforming an entire planet into something new.

Thank you. Well, we're not really knowing where this is headed. 

Aoife van Linden Tol: Do we do if we think about nature as a collaborator?

Markus: yeah,

Aoife van Linden Tol: having its own agency within our visualizations of the future of our existence in space. So for example, I worked on a project called Skylake with Monica Brandik Lipinska where we created a design for a moon or Mars. [00:18:00] environment, but it's not a habitat as such. It's more like an open environment in craters or maybe quarries where we've been doing mining, for example, if we, if we kind of go down and we, the idea was to have a lake, a sky lake above us.

So using two layers of glass and then water to protect from radiation and using suspension bridge technologies and things like that to, to create this space above craters. And or maybe, and caves as well. So you have this protection within the cave, so you have sunlight, you can take off your suit, you can walk around, you can have the first footprint in, in the moon dust. And what we talked about was putting the mycelium into a kind of concrete spray of composite and then spraying that into the walls to seal them up so that it doesn't have doesn't break and, and kind of let in the vacuum. But also to let the mycelium start to. [00:19:00] work it's magic and kind of maybe start to terraform. And then we can use that to help terraform the inside. So yeah, we kind of combined, that was a really interesting project and there was a lot more uptake than we thought. We kind of thought it was this crazy idea, you know, and it's quite far in the future. It's not like something we could build straight away.

It would be something you would have to create once we were already able to do mining and, and, and kind of creating glass, you know, in space or creating iron, aluminium structures, things like that.

Markus: Fascinating. Before we go to the outer space cultural evolution lab is, is, is this the proper term, an invention of yours?

Aoife van Linden Tol: Yes. So this is, I started this experimenting at the analog mission that I was commander on at the analog astronaut training center in Poland for, and the mission was called MPOL [00:20:00] 5 and I wanted to create this cultural evolution lab, which was. The concept is really to have a cultural lab in space, the same way you would have a scientific lab. that cultural lab would have all the ingredients that you might need as any kind of artist. So if you're a musician, you might have musical instruments or at least the materials maybe to help you create an experiment with musical instruments in space in zero gravity. Or if you're a visual artist maybe you've got materials and things that you can use to experiment with visual art in space. And so I created a few projects on this analog mission to see what would happen as a kind of feasibility and kind of start to understand what that might look like.

Markus: Before we go into more detail on this, I'd like to find out in, in this, because I think we're experiencing a [00:21:00] global cultural evolution lab at the moment where no one really knows where we're headed. I'm just trying to find out if where the arts, where artists can help us find exits or find new ways.

I mean like, but please do correct me if I'm wrong I feel like the 1960s or the late 1960s, they were a massive cultural experiment that had huge potential but then sort of never went anywhere. Do you think The moment we're experiencing right now on Earth this moment of global friction and, and separation from one another and whatnot, is call for a new iteration of cohabitation of society, because I feel like it's, I don't know why I keep this, [00:22:00] this, this thought keeps coming up in, in my mind.

But. It still feels like there is, the 20th century is still not over. The 20th century is still, at the moment, is fighting for survival. The industrial age is fighting for survival of patriarchal structures and whatnot. And we're slowly

slowly, slowly,

inching toward a new version of whatever that is, what the 21st century could be, I'm still not really sure about what it is, but we are experiencing or seeing the, the last, the showdown of the 20th century against something new.

Does this make any sense? And in how far is the artist's role now to come up with new solutions?

Aoife van Linden Tol: I think it does make some sense to me, what you're saying. I think there is that [00:23:00] lot of this, there's a, there's a lot of leveraging. of differences that we have been fighting and that have been in our particular area of the world, I would say. Not necessarily everywhere, but let's say progress of more equality, better human rights that has been, we would like to say, has been developing over the last century. I think that, There has been a lot of pushback on that. And I think you're right. I think there is that fight for maintaining the patriarchy and maintaining that sort of colonial

Markus: Mindset.

Aoife van Linden Tol: And it's but I think ultimately that is all being leveraged by people who want power and they will leverage anything they can. And I think the real [00:24:00] shame is that It doesn't make anyone's life any better, really. And I don't even think it makes rich people's lives any better, because they're already rich to a point where it doesn't matter if they have five billion or ten billion. It's irrelevant. It then becomes a kind of game. So I think it's where does the artist fit into this? I think that's really up to each individual artist if they want to be a part of trying to help to, to depolarize, I suppose, and fight that that narratives that are coming out that are, are coming out. are really damaging to people and specifically I can talk about this idea that freedom of speech idea and with, you know, we've got with social media platforms. where freedom of speech is, is king. [00:25:00] And but at whose expense, and what does freedom of speech really mean? Does freedom of speech mean that you can say anything you want, even if it's a lie, and then other people have to make up their own mind whether you're lying or not? Well, if we already know that you're lying, then why let you do it in the first place? And you're only doing it to manipulate at the end of the day.

Markus: To me, to me, this, to me, this call for freedom of speech online sounds like a call for A louder voice for bullies.

So bullies that have not been so, or couldn't be so vocal so far because we had like our societal, societal norms where those bullies didn't have a voice. But now this new freedom of speech sounds like we want to give them a voice for whatever reason.

Maybe it's as simple as that.

Aoife van Linden Tol: I think that's going back to what you said before, which is like, okay, there's this fight before we turn into something else. I guess my fear, and I think a lot of people's fear is what if? [00:26:00] What if they win the fight, at least for a certain amount of time? Like, how bad does it need to get before you, the pushback and the kind of saying, no, we don't want this anymore.

We want to have a peaceful society. We want to have a peaceful world. I think what it is doing though, uh, in some ways is making us examine those constructs in a bit more detail. For example, we're looking at not just Racism or colonialism or, or feminism. We're looking at all of those together. We're not just looking at climate change and who has access to space. We're looking at those in the context of all of those five things. And I think those are all really important dialogues going on. And things that need to be brought into the space world. There was the new technical session at the IAC called Decolonial practice.

I don't know if you heard about that. It was really fantastic session. And what was interesting [00:27:00] about that session is many of the people running it, the people who run it were artists, but also many of the people putting papers in were artists. And I thought that was really interesting because The artists are the ones bringing these questions and these dialogues into space world and into other areas as well. So that's, I think, potentially one of the roles they can play. And also, artists have a big voice. People listen to them. particularly the bigger they are and the more famous they are, you know, it's a platform like any other. And I think increasingly, Musical artists, film artists, actors, actresses, you know, are using that voice.

Markus: Let's Go back to space. Do you see space as a test bed, as a lab for New iterations for new versions of social cohabitation as, as the next step of what we're [00:28:00] experiencing right now.

Aoife van Linden Tol: I think this is the dream that everybody has and I think it's the dream we've had from the, since the inception of the idea of traveling to space. It was actually the artists and writers who imagined humans in space first before anyone really believed it might be possible. And it was the artists who inspired everyone else to actually it a go at the end of the day. and I think we have a kind of dystopic utopic view of people in space. Our stories are really important and the way that we that we can be. I think, unfortunately, at the moment, the space industry is, only has one idea of how we can get there. And that's a very commercial based uh, model.

Markus: Mm.

Aoife van Linden Tol: I mean, it's kind of, it's a, it's a commercial based model, which relies on, I would say at the beginning, public [00:29:00] funding, because the main contractors and the main you know, customers are going to be, uh, space agencies and are going to be countries, national, national, national countries. I think, so there's an interesting Kind of quandary there, which is, you know, these commercial space stations are commercial, but they also are, creating more access because in a way anyone can go. So it's also kind of democratizing space

Markus: Mm.

Aoife van Linden Tol: in a strange way. 

Markus: Yeah.

Aoife van Linden Tol: how that relationship happens in reality, I think we can only, what I found with the space industry, it's really interesting, actually. They have. a way that they think about it. And if you say to them, you can't do that because that's not good, they'll go, well, okay, what else

can we do this?

They don't know how, yeah, but like, okay, what else do we do? If you come and say, okay, we should do things like this, they go, oh, okay, interesting. Let's have a look at [00:30:00] it. So unfortunately the solution really, it has to come from outside quite often because they don't, uh, and, and that's kind of understandable in a way because the space industry has. grown from science and research. And from, uh, so it's, it, it's. Remit was quite narrow, and I spoke to this when I did my artist residence in ESA. It was interesting to hear that, well, they couldn't, they don't have a remit for sociological, you know, certain sociological projects, or humanitarian, humanities projects, space projects, or arts space projects.

Their remit is science. Exploration. So they, they can't really do anything outside of their directives.

Markus: Yeah. Yeah.

Aoife van Linden Tol: not how they were set up. So they don't know how to do those things also. So it's not just now that they don't have the right, even if they change the directors, they don't have the expertise.

[00:31:00] So I think what we're starting to see now is A, a realization that they do want more expertise and to invite artists more to, to kind of, engage other, disciplines into the space industry to learn. And we need that spin in knowledge.

Markus: Is this happening? I mean, like, are artists increasingly being invited?

Aoife van Linden Tol: Yes it is happening. It's happening in certain places, and I think mostly because the artists are knocking on the door, and if you get the right person, in the right place, at the right time, then they'll say, yeah, sure, come in. mostly based on, I guess, conversations So this is the kind of first way in which any organization will invite an artist in.

They open the doors, artists will come in, have conversations with experts, have tours, look around, maybe even collect some data or some materials, go away and make an artwork inspired by [00:32:00] that. And then the other way that this is happening now, as I mentioned, is artists are coming in and actually getting involved in research, maybe even using some of the equipment, maybe even staying for much longer periods and going and becoming really part of the team. And working on projects together. So this is like a, another layer. And I think this is why at SP we have invited artists, uh, we've launched the first artists in residency ever

Markus: It's the European Space Policy Institute.

Aoife van Linden Tol: the European Space Policy Institute. So first ever time inviting an artist to work on space policy, which is really another sort of level of, of inviting artists to get involved.

Markus: Wow. Tell us more about that because this is like the polar opposites of what I could imagine of a meaningful cooperation because you have like the very rigid structures of bureaucracy and then you have the free minds of [00:33:00] the artists. How does that work?

Aoife van Linden Tol: It works under actually, uh, Very good for us. It works under the structure of the STAARTS Prize Initiative, which is a long running science, technology and arts It's funded by the European Union. this sort of progress, as I've been mentioning, has really been tracked by that, and they have quite a, a detailed framework revolves around the triple transformation of, I think, society, tech, and the third one?

Green transition. So, trying to tie these things together, and they're inviting, they really want artists to go into, So, we're going to be looking at areas where these things are being developed and help and help kind of look in different [00:34:00] perspectives and provide different ways of exploring, different ways of analyzing, different ways of presenting ideas.

Markus: well.

Can you give us an example at what like a concrete example at what happened at SP with that collaboration?

Aoife van Linden Tol: Open Call just finished at the end of last year, and actually I'm allowed to announce now that the winner is, an amazing artist called Kiriaki from Greece, and she will be spending time with us over 2025. She'll come for various visits. We're hoping to take her to the UN, to UNOSA to look at that bureaucracy, see how it works.

Like, what does it mean to do space policy? hang out with us at SP and discover how we work our research. So how we bring research and turn that into recommendations. for space agencies, nations, the UN, et cetera. And what, how we work in sort of short term, long term, [00:35:00] also how we work across not just research, but also engagement and education. then. The context that was set, the challenge that we, we gave, uh, for this residency was European space policy in an age of sustainability. And so one of the triple transformations is green, uh, technologies. And we're also opening in 2025, the Center for Excellence for Space and Sustainability. we have a really, uh, need for a focus on that.

So I think this is going to be a really nice way to explore. Uh, for her to explore. And of course, as we're only launching this project, it's also really interesting to see how that evolves in itself, going to get involved? How? What does this Center of Excellence mean? What does it do? And I think of the first things it's going to do is really try to define what sustainability in space means, because it means about five different things right now. [00:36:00] If you say space sustainability to one person, they will start talking immediately about something completely different to another person. these kind of definitions need to be defined. worked on as well as know, uh, how, we really harness it for the future of, of, of Earth.

Markus: How are artists received in those, for artists, alien places? How do scientists, how do policymakers react when you sit at their table?

Aoife van Linden Tol: Better than they did about six years ago, I have to say. I mean, I think when I started coming to IAC, for example, I would say, I'm an artist and people would go, oh, okay.

Markus: Yes. Hmm. Hmm.

Aoife van Linden Tol: of ended. And then now you say you're an artist and people are like, Oh, okay. What do you do in space?

And I think there is, uh, [00:37:00] up of the, the conscience within the space community slowly. there's still, there's still a bit of both, but I think there's a bit, a bit more openness to what that is and what an artist can do. So, if, if they have had that little door opened, then we can get into a

Markus: Let's imagine that your work as an artist or the creative side of society in itself is trying to establish a new framework of, uh, a new social framework. So my, my question would be, is there a common understanding of what a future society could look like? Are there specific overlapses of different different versions of social visions that you would say[00:38:00] 

they

are, they could be common ground because we all agree on these and that.

Is there, because what I'm trying to get at is what kind of society, so if this is the Outer Space Cultural Evolution Lab is a lab to envision something new? I'm just trying to find out, what is this something new? Are there any things you can already track down and say, hey, this is where, where all this is headed?

Aoife van Linden Tol: think, for me, the lab is not necessarily modelling something new, it's trying to find it in that space. it's not just visual artists and, I guess, yeah, it's broader cultural and I think ISS is a cultural experiment. People are already changing their behavior and the way that, [00:39:00] they move, that they talk, that they socialize.

And these habits are of another, it's a new culture already evolving. And, but then they don't have a cultural expert necessarily tracking all of that. And not just tracking it and studying it, but helping to enhance it, helping to guide it, helping to, and actually we have cultural experts. Since the beginning of humanity, culture has been evolving consciously. We've made a lot of effort. We've, we've always had a lot of effort in evolving our culture, whether that's through designing fabrics or Earthenware, you know, even when we were hunter gatherers, you know, how, or, you know, from hunter gatherers to even to now, we, loads of money, like there's so much more money put into arts and the UN than there is in space. [00:40:00] it's seen as a really important part of how we evolve as humans, that cultural element is, you know, just important in itself, but it's an important facilitator. I think will be super interesting is having an expert in space, in culture, to help us Let's shape that and experiment and try things out and understand that we don't have to dictate this is how it's going to be at the beginning and then set that and then that's what we have to follow and

Markus: Hmm.

Aoife van Linden Tol: because that might not work and I think there's a fear of being wrong quite often

Markus: hmm.

Aoife van Linden Tol: in the scientific world because you know if you're wrong maybe particularly in space where your project might be multi generational you don't want to be wrong.

Markus: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Aoife van Linden Tol: So we want to open up a bit more and kind of say, okay, this is a space for [00:41:00] that evolution to happen, uh, over time. I don't a hundred percent know what that looks like. I think I want to invite more artists, more scientists, more cultural experts. And I think this is, I guess when I talk about artists, it is more about a broader cultural expert, not just an artist.

I don't know many artists who are just artists. I think many of us are also, explorers of broader culture and relationships we have in society.

Markus: Do you think it's Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek vision, is that the way to go still? Because it's still, I mean, like, it dates back to the 60s, but it still sounds very, very visionary still to have that open multi cultural and de gendered society, um, where it's the post consumerist society, the post industrial [00:42:00] society, where it's not about the money because you're, everything is being taken care of because there is plenty, there's an abundance of energy, of free energy through technology.

And the replicators, which I'm still waiting for someone to invent. They're taking care of your material needs. So, is this, is this a way to go?

Aoife van Linden Tol: I mean, great, but I think We shouldn't decide that. We should be inviting everybody to decide that. And I think that vision needs to be shared with, you know, the benefit for all humankind. This is what they talk about in the Moon Treaty the Outer Space Treaty, but who is doing that and how are we doing that?

And I think this isn't talked about a lot, but the reality of inviting everybody to the table to talk about What this benefit is and who it's for and how that happens and what that utopian vision, vision is, and I think we [00:43:00] often talk about in the West, us creating this utopian vision, but we're not, we're, we're still the ones doing that, right?

Markus: Mm.

Aoife van Linden Tol: and I definitely think that the pathways for that, the dialogue of including everybody in that decision making in the first place. Uh, building that utopian vision together is, that's not there, you know, and I think we need that. I don't want to my utopian vision because I'm in a certain part of society where, you know, could be making many assumptions about other people that I don't even realize I'm doing.

Markus: Mm.

Aoife van Linden Tol: it would be, I, I, my, my and, and, and something I hope that I can help facilitate would be to really bring more people to the table.

Markus: Mm. But still, the thing is, this is super interesting because it, when you're calling now for participation and bring everyone to the table, It's, it's super interesting to [00:44:00] see where society is headed at the moment because it seems like we do not want to be asked. We want the strong decision makers.

We do not want to sit at the table. This is what the, the onslaught on democracy on a global scale is portraying as we speak.

Aoife van Linden Tol: it's much harder. A, it's much more difficult, and B, yes, it's not really going to conform with the current polarizing narratives that are happening. so I agree with you there, and I'm not 100 percent sure what the solution to that is, but I think we have to keep trying to look for it.

Markus: So maybe it's just an episode we're undergoing at the moment, a very painful one, but hopefully it's just an episode.

Aoife van Linden Tol: I hope so.

Markus: You have when, when I look at your work as an artist, it's interesting to see that you love it. You love explosions. You love to blow things up. Why is that?[00:45:00] 

Aoife van Linden Tol: I mean, what's not to love? I think Honestly, I think there were so many things that came together about why I love explosions. I think there's the raw power and transformational energy that happens. You know, we're talking about a tipping point where as soon as it happens, in an extremely short moment of time, have an irreversible change, something that can never be put back again. don't necessarily talk about it in terms of destruction, because of course, being a scientist, there is no such thing as destruction. We talk about change in molecules, a change in matter. and it, an energy, but, uh, and even, even if you were to carve something, you know, you would take a block of wood and you'd be chiseling away it, you'd be destroying some part of it. So in that sense, but, but I do also recognize there is this irreversible change and I think there's something very powerful about that and I think it speaks to the human [00:46:00] experience very profoundly. And what I've realized is that human connection The experience or the evidence of an explosion is very strong and that can be everything from I'll give you an example.

I have a Project Second Story where people give me objects and I explode them and they tell me why. So they tell me the story. And the objects don't get destroyed. I often just explode them in a very particular way. It might be that I burn some of the pages, or I might blow a big hole through it, or maybe I make a mark somehow. Treat it, manipulate it, and with a, in a way that's relevant to the story. And then I give the object back and somebody continues their relationship with that object. And often objects hold a lot of power as well for people. So you it, not only from physically in terms of [00:47:00] what it was to what it is once the explosion happens, i.

e. burning it, scorching it, making holes, but also from an object like a book into an artwork and somehow the relationship is different. So people had stories that were related to letting go of things that they haven't been able to let go of, getting revenge, celebrating life new eras, marking a new era in their life, uh, things like that.

And I think this really opened my eyes to the relationship that people have with these powerful moments. And I think it's also a really strong statement to say, and I think this is what really got me in the first place to want to use this instinctively, to use this power, is to say I'm going to take this form this, this and use it for something like art as [00:48:00] opposed to something that is used for gaining power

Destroying human lives.

And when I say that, it's not just,

Just that bombs are used to kill people, uh, in war. People that design bombs, are designing them. The level at which they go to think about how a bomb is going to be used is absolutely incredible and horrifying. There are bombs that are made to go off when they land, they're very light, And they look like little toys so that children pick them up and go off.

Yes,

Markus: excuse me.

Aoife van Linden Tol: and somebody designed that. And I learned about that when I did my explosive training. And I was so horrified that the human imagination could do something like that. and so I think it's really important to, to highlight that and to question that and say, Why has that been allowed to exist? [00:49:00] The fact that we can create this power, I mean, is amazing. There are incredible explosions in nature, which are also very inspiring for me.

Markus: Hmm. Supernovae. Hmm.

Aoife van Linden Tol: The Big Bang electricity, uh, lightning, lightning bolts, even our magnetic field has explosions in it from the magnetotail. There are huge explosive snaps that happen when parts of the magnetic field go off into space behind the Earth and uh, out into Supernovas, you know, this is super inspiring and I think it's part of nature. These, this force is a part of nature that we've harnessed and we should really be responsible to use it in, in a beautiful way.

Markus: Beautiful. I'm still thinking about, because this, it still resonates with me very much when you, when you mentioned the role of [00:50:00] the artist and when artists come to a table, everything can get shifted, but is usually is usually improving or contributional to, to the status quo. So would that mean that in the end, everyone, no matter

what field we're talking about, everyone could contribute from having a different voice at the table no matter where that voice comes from, because it brings a different, different perspective on things. And you can only. Benefit from different perspectives is, is that the the way to potentially also think

Aoife van Linden Tol: Absolutely. And I think this is I mean, I'm fighting the artist corner because I'm, I'm an artist

Markus: first?

Aoife van Linden Tol: that field. So, but I think there are lots of other. fields that need to be at the table. And I think the artists are also bringing those voices in. 

what, what I, what I think also [00:51:00] might be interesting just to say in terms of the role of the artist in space is also looking at where arts is applied to other spaces. fields such as psychology. You mentioned a moment ago, you know, long trips to Mars, and I worked on a project with Dr.

Tamara Russell who has created this dragon way to mental health and wealth. And we adapted it for the space environment for long duration flights. And it uses arts, mindfulness and clinical psychology. So the astronauts can. their own psychological well being and psychological safety, which is the most important thing for maintaining equilibrium within high performance teams. I think that's a really good example of where arts can be used. And it's really important because they're not going to be able to get the support that they need. And they're going to have to open [00:52:00] up, which is really hard for astronauts because they're all alphas.

Markus: Yeah.

Aoife van Linden Tol: kind of weakness could be seen as you not being able to do your job very well, and so you would never want another person to know if you were suffering from something,

Markus: Mmm,

Aoife van Linden Tol: it creates a methodology that allows people to talk to each other without feeling too feeling supported, feeling like they can express.

And you don't always even need to tell somebody else what's wrong, you can just tell them what you need. I think it's really important because a lot of psychological

Markus: Mmm,

Aoife van Linden Tol: Ideas are all data driven and they want machines and they want the astronauts to fill things in, and it's not an enjoyable process and it's not that effective. and I think this, it's, it's, it's understanding where to create something, a solution that is data driven and digital driven and tech driven, numbers driven, and where to create a [00:53:00] solution that is actually something that. We actually have a long history of on earth as well with arts therapy. I mean, it's kind of spectrum in terms of we were working isn't, isn't really art therapy, but there's, there's a kind of tradition there that's uh, long looked at.

And the other thing I think I wanted to say was just about not to forget this sort of economical powerhouse of the arts world. In terms of these commercial space stations, you know, they're looking at industries to with and they forget about the arts. And the arts is a huge, it's a, it's three times, more than three times bigger than the space industry and includes gaming and space, gaming and film, TV fine arts, and there's a lot of expertise there. And a lot of the arts that happens in space is very I don't want to say amateur but it could also be, it's [00:54:00] either student led or it's kind of novelty, it's, it's an entrepreneur coming along who maybe doesn't know that much about arts and wants to do an amazing arts, which is great and I think all of those things have a place. But if want to look at an industry where you could have like, basically there's a zero, TRL, you know, there's no, you know, TRL limitations, you've basically got something that's ready to go. I would say that's also could be a valuable asset in terms of helping this new era begin, if that makes sense. So if we look again, going back to this idea of access to space and who is providing this benefit and access to space it's often the artists that are creating projects. or it's often art projects

Markus: Mm-hmm.

Aoife van Linden Tol: giving access to space. So a lot of these postcards in space projects that are going up in the commercial flights,

Markus: Projects?

Aoife van Linden Tol: yeah, the moon gallery is an

Markus: Yeah.

Aoife van Linden Tol: Project. So it's, [00:55:00] and actually all you need is to have found out about the project somehow and a way to make an object for the moon gallery and then a post postage to post it in. if you can do those three things, then you can take part. And I think it's often these art projects that are providing the access, whereas there's, and when I say access, I mean actual access to space, objects going into space, things going into space, people going into space. yeah, I think, I think that's also interesting.

And even the Moon Gallery, you don't have to be an artist. You could just be somebody with a good idea some of, some of the people who've submitted are not artists, but they got their piece in the collection. And that's open at the moment for the Moon trip. So they had their International Space Station trip, which one of my artworks was a part of, and now they've got the open call for the Moon.

Markus: Hmm. Hmm.

Fantastic.

If, uh, there's a [00:56:00] question I keep asking my guests on every show and now I'm asking it to you. If the call came, would you go into space?

Aoife van Linden Tol: Yes.

Markus: Do it.

Aoife van Linden Tol: where. I'm a bit scared of going to Mars right now, I have to say. I don't, I don't think, I don't fancy that. think it's too bleak and too and I'm not, I don't think I need to go there. If it was to go to the International Space Station or to, to go up enough of an amount of time to do an experiment or a few experiments, then I would love to. Yes.

Markus: the question I'm, I'm, I'm trying to ask the space station is too short a journey. So you would need to at least go to Mars because then it, then things get interesting. Because my question to you, if you go to Mars after a couple of weeks or a couple of days of initial excitement, things will wear off quite, quite quickly.

The end. [00:57:00] Things can get quite boring on very long distance journeys in space. So my question to you we have a playlist on Spotify. It's called the playlist for the aspiring space traveler. And each of my guests contributes one of their favorite tunes to entertain them on the boring rides, on the boring journeys.

What's, what's your contribution to that playlist?

Aoife van Linden Tol: That would have to be, I think that the one that's going around in my head at the moment is John Hopkins. Remember the name of the track, it's one of his big tracks that

Markus: We wouldn't, we wouldn't need the name of the track because I'm literally putting it on, on the playlist.

Aoife van Linden Tol: okay.

Markus: So you're looking it up.

Aoife van Linden Tol: Lemme look it up. Uh, wait, I should have it on my Spotify list actually. [00:58:00] I A, B, C, L, M, N, O, P, Luminous Spaces by John Hopkins.

Markus: Fantastic. I'll put it online. Once we're airing that show and my, my last question to you Aoife this is a coffee place. It's the Space Cafe Podcast and now and then in coffee places, you energize yourself with an espresso, a very strong shot of coffee. Coffee to energize your body. Now I challenge you to energize our minds and share with us a shot of inspiration.

An espresso for the mind. What would be your?

Uh, Aoife van Lindenthal, Shot of Inspiration.

Aoife van Linden Tol: Oh, I'm thinking about something Naoum said, a friend of mine, in his TED Talk. I haven't got the exact quote, but the artist's connection with the cosmos [00:59:00] has been happening for the beginning of time, as I mentioned, the stars, telling stories in the stars, across all different cultures. And I find that incredibly inspiring because I think it's deeply rooted to who we are humans. Not just the stars themselves, but the stories that we, we tell connected to the cosmos, connected to the stars.

And I think how we continue to explore those stories as humans and how we express those stories is going to be super interesting. And I don't know where it's going to take us. I can only use my own imagination, but I'm, I'm kind of quite excited that that lineage will be continued. But I'm slightly cheating there because I'm kind of stealing Naomi's 

Markus: I love it. I love it. 

Aoife, brilliant. Aoife, thank you so much for [01:00:00] taking the time and being here in the show.

Aoife van Linden Tol: Thank you for inviting me. Well, I mean, Emma kind of put us in touch, but yeah, I was really happy that she thought of me.

And that's a wrap my friends. Thanks for listening. I hope this conversation with Aoife was as inspiring to you as it was to me. If so, consider sharing it with someone. I know I keep repeating myself, but I think it's a nice gesture to share something inspiring, a good idea, a good moment, a moment of inspiration with someone important in someone's life.

I think this is important. I think this is what our time needs as a drop of water. I will see you again in two weeks from now. Thank you for your loyalty. If you like what you're hearing, you know what you have to do. I'm not telling you anything, [01:01:00] what you have to do. I would ask you to consider giving us a review, giving us a rating on the podcast platform that you usually hang out.

That's the language algorithms understand. And other than that, keep looking up to the stars. The sky's the limit. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. See you in two weeks. Bye bye.