Would You Eat This? NASA Thinks It’s the Future of Food

🎙 Guest: Arttu Luukanen, Head of Space & Defense at Solar Foods

The Cosmic Scoop:

How do we feed ourselves in space? The settlers of the past brought livestock, but in deep space, resupply isn’t an option, and every gram counts. Could microbes be the answer? Enter Solar Foods, a Finnish company producing food from just water, electricity, and bacteria—a breakthrough that won NASA’s Deep Space Food Challenge. It’s no longer just a prototype; it’s ready to scale.

From feeding astronauts on Mars to reshaping food production on Earth, this innovation challenges everything we thought we knew about sustainability.At SXSW in Austin, Texas, Arttu Luukanen reveals why traditional food systems won’t work in space—and how Solein, their microbial protein, could transform the way we eat.

Quotable Insights:

💡 "Microbes don’t have brains, don’t have free will, and all they want to do is multiply. That’s what makes them the perfect food source for deep space."

 💡 "With our method, we can turn CO₂ and hydrogen into protein—it's 100 times more efficient than animal farming."

 💡 "We could place food factories in the desert, powered by solar energy, and produce protein without farmland or livestock."

Cosmic Timestamps:

⏳ [00:00:00] Introduction – How do we feed ourselves in deep space?
⏳ [00:03:05] Arttu’s background: From space research to revolutionizing food
⏳ [00:07:55] Why growing food on Mars is a massive challenge
⏳ [00:12:30] The NASA Deep Space Food Challenge and how Solar Foods won
⏳ [00:19:18] The science behind Solein – food made from air, water, and microbes
⏳ [00:27:42] Why livestock and even plants are inefficient in space
⏳ [00:34:15] Could microbial protein replace farming on Earth?
⏳ [00:40:50] The biggest challenge: Scaling production to industrial levels
⏳ [00:48:12] Will AI and automation make self-replicating food factories possible?
⏳ [00:53:25] Space exploration and the next step for food sustainability

To Explore:

🔗 Solar Foods – https://solarfoods.com
🔗 NASA Deep Space Food Challenge – https://www.nasa.gov/feature/deep-space-food-challenge
🔗 More on microbial protein (ESA feature) – https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Food_from_air_for_space_and_Earth

🎵 Arttu Luukanen's choice: Rush – Countdown 🎶

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Transcript

SCP127_Solar_Master
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[00:00:00] Arttu: I was looking for like new challenges and, and then Pasi called me up and said that, Hey, do you want to come and, uh, lead our space and defense activities? And I'm saying, I don't, I know nothing about biology, but Hey, why not?

[00:00:11] Markus: Let's do it.


[00:00:11] Markus: Hello, everyone. This is the Space Cafe podcast, and I'm Marcus. So the question of the day is how do we feed ourselves during those long lasting, multi month, multi year space missions in the future? Seems like a trivial question. Just pack your stuff, whatever you're craving for, and off you go. But of course, we know when weight is an issue, every gram counts.

[00:00:41] Markus: Well, things get a little sketchy, so we need solutions. Back in history, when the settlers set out to find new homes, they took their livestock with them. The sheep, the chicken, whatever they needed. Would that be a viable option also for future voyages with rockets to Mars and beyond? Or do we need different solutions?

[00:01:06] Markus: I'd like to present today a very interesting solution that even NASA considers as a game changer solution. And that solution comes from Finland, from a company called Solar Foods. What they did is, they just took a little bit of water and added microbes to a process. And that produces protein. It's ingenious.

[00:01:33] Markus: Really, really interesting. And, they won the NASA Deep Space Food Challenge with that solution. And today with me on the show as a guest is its CEO, um, Arti Lukkonen from Finland, a physicist. And we would like to discuss today what all that means for future space travel. And Even beyond what that could mean for sustainable food production on Earth.

[00:02:05] Markus: It's mind blowingly interesting, believe me. Off we go. Let's go.


[00:02:11] Markus: Good. Fantastic.

[00:02:12] Arttu: All right.

[00:02:13] Markus: the time.

[00:02:13] Arttu: Yep.

[00:02:15] Markus: Um, Finnish physicist wins NASA's food competition. This is how a fantastic story could start, a fictional story. In your case, it's a real story. How, how did all this come into, into being? Tell me about it. Your background, your background is unusual.

[00:02:37] Arttu: Yes. Yes. Okay. So, um, first of all, it was our team that won the competition, not me.

[00:02:42] Arttu: Um, uh, so my background, yeah, I, I have a PhD in applied physics. Uh, I've had a fairly long academic career. Uh, before I joined Solar Foods, I had my own startup, uh, that CEO for eight years. Uh, as a spinoff from VTT. VTT is the Technical Research Center of Finland. And at VTT, I was a research professor, did lots of space related things.

[00:03:06] Arttu: I actually, I was the director of a sort of a European space agency, external laboratory. Uh, there, so we did a lot of space related things at that time.

[00:03:15] Markus: What kind of research was that?

[00:03:17] Arttu: Oh, it was really high frequency radio. So basically millimeter waves, terahertz, uh, all sorts of very high frequency radio, uh, sort of instrumentation

[00:03:27] Markus: And what's the use case for, for

[00:03:28] Arttu: Well, uh, the laboratory that I, that I was working for, uh, we built one of the, uh, receivers for a, Major science satellite called plank and plank is, uh, you know, it was used to map the cosmic microwave background at those very high radio frequencies. Uh, I also, uh, I was a research professor of micro nano systems.

[00:03:50] Arttu: Uh, which really kind of related to, uh, let's say various kind of sensors, uh, especially cryogenic sensors. So I, uh, so actually my PhD is in wall temperature physics, you know, it's convenient for Finn. Um, so, uh, so I, I, I work with superconductors, uh, and sensors based on superconductors. Um, so yeah, so very different kind of, uh, domain that I'm currently working at.

[00:04:13] Arttu: But kind of the connection with, uh, solar foods in some ways was established already in, let's say, 2008 or 2009, when I met, uh, our current CEO, Pasi Vainikka, who was also a, uh, researcher at VTP at that time. So I knew the CEO, uh, ever since that.

[00:04:31] Markus: Okay. So what was this, um, the NASA challenge all about?

[00:04:36] Arttu: So, so we entered the challenge in 2021.

[00:04:39] Arttu: That

[00:04:39] Markus: Was, was this the reason that you ca got into the field in the first place?

[00:04:44] Arttu: Um, not really because the, the company actually entered, uh, the competition already in 2021. So that was a year before I joined, uh, Solar Foods. Okay. Um, but, but then, then in 2022. Uh, I was looking for like new challenges and, and then Pasi called me up and said that, Hey, do you want to come and, uh, lead our space and defense activities?

[00:05:03] Arttu: And I'm saying, I don't, I know nothing about biology, but Hey, why not?

[00:05:07] Markus: Let's do it.

[00:05:07] Arttu: Yeah, let's do it. So, so I, I actually joined in the phase two of the NASA challenge. And

[00:05:14] Markus: so what, what was that challenge about, about, so

[00:05:16] Arttu: the deep space food challenge was, uh, it's, it's, it's run by the NASA centennial challenges. So these are like. Basically, uh, challenges that are open to pretty much everybody, uh, where NASA has identified a, a, a difficult problem, uh, and they want to kind of, uh, trickle the minds of as many people as possible to come up with ideas on how to solve that problem.

[00:05:38] Arttu: So the deep space food challenge, the motivation for it is that, uh, if we are thinking about deep space exploration and especially, you know, going to Mars and beyond, um, one of the most difficult things about that is the, is the resupply. And basically you have no capacity of resupplying missions, especially during transit.

[00:05:58] Arttu: I mean, you could send, say, food and water, uh, and land it on Mars and have it wait there for the crews. Uh, but, uh, but, but it's really not a possibility because of the mass involved. Uh, and also the fact that, you know, food degrades over time, you know, the value, the nutritional value degrades. So,

[00:06:16] Markus: so greenhouses are not a thing because it's, it's, um, you

[00:06:24] Arttu: you

[00:06:24] Markus: can't make sure that those greenhouses will stay alive.

[00:06:27] Arttu: I mean, farming of some sort will probably be a part of that sort of deep space food system. So people have done experiments on aeroponic farming. I mean, there are experiments on the ISS as we speak, where the astronauts are growing, you know, salad and tomatoes and whatnot. Uh, so, so it's very likely that there will be some sort of farming, uh, as part of the food system.

[00:06:49] Arttu: But, but kind of the, one of the big problems about the food system is the protein. Uh, because you, you, you know, uh, the human body needs protein, not just to maintain muscle mass. But actually the so called nine essential amino acids that, you know, these are amino acids that our body cannot metabolize, they are super important for your brain. So, so if you have a crew that's on a 500 day Mars mission, which is basically the minimum duration, if you don't get those essential amino acids, The crew will be not functioning to a hundred percent by the end of the mission. And obviously, you know, being an astronaut going to Mars, you want to be performing at a hundred percent throughout the mission.

[00:07:30] Markus: So what, what would be a natural source of, of protein? You could bring animals, of course.

[00:07:37] Arttu: Uh, animals, well, it's a bit difficult because they're kind of high maintenance. Yeah. And you need to bring food for the animals. So, and animals are actually Extremely inefficient in turning, you know, kilowatt hours to calories.

[00:07:51] Arttu: So, so animals are, I don't, I don't think that's going to be an option. I mean, one could argue about insects. Um, I am a bit skeptical about insects as well because they have a brain and they have free will.

[00:08:02] Markus: So,

[00:08:02] Arttu: So it's a potential, like, uh, you know, contamination problem

[00:08:06] Markus: Uh,

[00:08:06] Arttu: and they also kind of high maintenance.

[00:08:08] Arttu: Microbes are nice because they have no brain, they have no free will, all they want to do is just multiply.

[00:08:13] Markus: Yeah, and that was, that was your, your crack in, in the, in the, in the riddle that you wanted to work

[00:08:22] Arttu: Yeah, so, so. First of all, what we do, which is gas fermentation, is incredibly efficient in turning energy into edible biomass.

[00:08:31] Arttu: It's, it's, it's something like a hundred times more energy efficient than, than an animal. Um, that's one thing. The other thing, which is kind of the, kind of the special thing about this fermentation method that we use, which is gas fermentation of CO2 and hydrogen, is the fact that if you think about any space habitat, whether it's a orbiting space station, a lunar base, or a base on Mars, Uh, there is a system that's called the environmental control life support system or ECLSS, uh, with the purpose of keeping the crew alive.

[00:09:04] Arttu: Uh, and what it does, it produces the oxygen for the crew. So the oxygen is actually generated from, uh, water by splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen. Uh, but currently the hydrogen that is a byproduct of this oxygen generation is vented, so it's not used. Uh, same thing happens with the CO2. So the carbon dioxide that is the crew is, you know, but crew's metabolism is, they exhale CO2.

[00:09:28] Arttu: Uh, that is also vented. Because these two gases are vented. There's a net loss of water. But if we introduce this gas fermentation technique that we do to produce protein, we can close those loops, those gas loops, which, from a purely mass standpoint, it's like 75 percent of our mass savings is water and 25 percent is the food that we can produce at, at, at site.

[00:09:51] Markus: So we

[00:09:51] Arttu: So we would actually form a part of the life support system, you know, so CO2 and hydrogen in, food out, and water out. So the by product of this fermentation process is water.

[00:10:04] Markus: food out. what kind of food are we talking about?

[00:10:07] Arttu: So in the deep state food challenge kind of concept that we designed there, we envision a system that will generate this kind of a Uh, so it's microbial protein, uh, with water.

[00:10:20] Arttu: So it's, it's kind of a slight, somewhat thick liquid that has a flavor of, uh, very, very delicate, uh, flavor of umami. So, um, that's the natural flavor of it. So the, actually, protein tastes like umami. Um, maybe some, some nuttiness and a little bit sort of kind of mushroomy notes here and there. Uh, but the idea is that, uh, the end product will be this kind of a thick liquid.

[00:10:44] Arttu: You could, you could drink it right away. It's actually quite palatable. Or if you add, say, maybe sugar, uh, some vanilla, uh, that's your protein shake. So you would get your daily, let's say two or three protein shakes a day for the crew, for each crew member.

[00:10:58] Markus: Uh, that, that triggers my, my memory to Soylent. Do you remember that

[00:11:02] Arttu: that?

[00:11:02] Arttu: Yeah. Soylent

[00:11:05] Markus: I don't know if it's still around, but, um.

[00:11:07] Markus: Soylent. Yeah. Soylent. I think Soylent was. Also, an attempt to make our nutrition more efficient by just drinking and intaking the pure ingredients of food with, without the bells and whistles of good taste.

[00:11:26] Arttu: Yes. Yes. I don't, I'm not sure if they are around.

[00:11:29] Arttu: I mean. There is a good question and I think it's kind of a slightly beyond us is, is that, uh, if you think of the ISS or any of the, let's say, future near future habitats, there's no such thing as a kitchen there. I mean, the kitchen is, you know, you have an option for cold water or hot water. So that limits what you can do.

[00:11:49] Arttu: Right. So,

[00:11:50] Markus: cook pasta.

[00:11:52] Arttu: yeah, well, you, you. Potentially could. I mean, there's no, I don't think there's anything that you can boil, uh, but, but indeed, I think one missing technology gap here is that even if you have like A greenhouse, you have our bioprocess that's producing the protein. How do you turn those ingredients into, you know, a dozen recipes?

[00:12:10] Markus: Mm-hmm

[00:12:11] Arttu: Uh, so, so there needs to be some technology development on how we actually develop a kitchen that's space compatible.

[00:12:19] Markus: Hmm.

[00:12:19] Arttu: So I've been recently looking a lot at, uh, like cooking robots. You can buy these things nowadays. So, so it has. They have like magazines for ingredients and then it's got, you know, an arm and it does the whole thing.

[00:12:31] Arttu: Uh, so something like that, but something that's microgravity or reduced gravity compatible would be quite interesting. How does

[00:12:36] Markus: How does it work today? So how do. Do astronauts feed themselves today?

[00:12:42] Arttu: So most of it, obviously at LEO, uh, and in the future of Artemis missions to the moon, it's pack and go, meaning that all the food is launched, uh, with either supply missions or with the crew.

[00:12:53] Arttu: Uh, to the habitat. So, so they have, uh, canned foods, they have, uh, freeze dried foods, which are then rehydrated with either cold or hot water. Uh, they have what's called a bonus food, uh, at least the Isar astronauts. Which means that they can, uh, they can select some of their favorite dishes that they, they get, you know, not like every day, but you know, maybe three times during the mission or something, they, they get this bonus food.

[00:13:16] Arttu: Um, so, so it's, it's all packed, uh, either dehydrated or, or canned stuff. And the cans, they can, they have, there is a heater that you can heat the food cans at, at the ISS. So you don't have to eat like, you know, cold canned food. Um, yeah, so, so there's quite a bit of variability because of that, because obviously you can have.

[00:13:37] Arttu: Many, many different foodstuffs launched up with the, with the cruise. Uh, so, so there's, that's the good thing. The bad thing is the mass, because you know, resupplying, uh, a, a, even a Leo habitat is tens of thousands of dollars per, per kilogram. So a can of food is thousands of dollars.

[00:13:55] Markus: So all you need is Hydrogen, um, CO2. No, hydrogen you don't need. You need

[00:14:01] Arttu: We need, yes, we need hydrogen. So, so our organism, uh, which is a hydrogen oxidizing bacteria. It's a bit different, like, if you compare with algae, so algae uses light as the energy source. Uh, this microbe that we have discovered from the Finnish countryside, it uses hydrogen as the energy source.

[00:14:19] Arttu: And it uses that energy then to sequester CO2.

[00:14:22] Markus: Interesting, interesting. Tell us everything. How, how did you come across that bacterium?

[00:14:27] Arttu: So, both luck and hard work. Maybe more of hard work than luck. But, uh, in the beginning of the company, so 2017, 18, uh, the biology team at solar foods was basically screening for, uh, hydrogen, uh, suitable hydrogen oxidizing bacteria from environmental samples.

[00:14:46] Arttu: So, so thousands and thousands of, uh, uh, environmental samples were collected and then they were, uh, fermented in our biology laboratory looking for bacteria that grows well with hydrogen CO2. And then they found this, uh, specific strain of a known bacteria. But this strain was new to science, uh, and then what, uh, what was done, you know, that, uh, strain of bacteria, because it was a new, new strain, uh, uh, solar foods got a utility patent for it.

[00:15:17] Arttu: So we have basically a proprietary, our own production organism, uh, that we can use then to produce food.

[00:15:24] Markus: Interesting. So how does the whole fermentation process work? You have hydrogen in a container, and then you throw the bacterium onto it?

[00:15:33] Arttu: Yeah. So, so we, we've just completed our first factory, uh, just about a year ago, uh, in Finland.

[00:15:40] Arttu: Uh, we actually, we, we make the hydrogen, uh, on site. So we have a 1.5 megawatt electrolyzer. Mm-hmm. Uh, that splits water into hydrogen. Oxygen. The, we throw the oxygen away because we don't need it that much. Uh, and then the hydrogen is put into this big. Uh, tank, which is the bioreactor. And together with the hydrogen we have inside the tank, we have what's called growth media, which is basically water.

[00:16:04] Arttu: It's 95 percent water, but it's got a kind of pinch of minerals, same minerals that plants take from the ground with their roots. So they, uh, then we take living cells. We put those also into the tank and you know, we, we've generated perfect conditions for that the microbe likes and it starts kind of fulfilling its purpose in life, which is to multiply.

[00:16:25] Arttu: And then we feed these gases, we in bubbles, uh, so hydrogen and CO2. There's a big mixer that's stirring everything so that, that ensures that every cell in that big 20, 000 liter reactor has everything it needs to multiply. Uh, so, uh, if we start from coal, it takes a few days that we reach a sufficient, uh, biomass density, uh, and then we start harvest.

[00:16:48] Arttu: So we start harvesting biomass and growth media out of the tank. Which we, and then we replaced, uh, uh, new growth media at the same volumetric rate. So it's like a continuous

[00:16:58] Markus: And then what you harvest is almost pure protein?

[00:17:01] Arttu: Yeah, I mean, at that stage, it's still, there's lots of water. So the rest of the process is very close to what if, if you were to go to a dairy.

[00:17:08] Arttu: Uh, let's say like a milk powder plant. So we do pasteurization, same as you do with milk. So pasteurization means that we kill, kill the microbes. Uh, then we do a centrifugal separation. So we, we have a separator that separates majority of the water, uh, and the growth media, which is then recycled back into the tank, the bioreactor.

[00:17:30] Arttu: And then this kind of thick liquid that it's at that stage goes into what's called spray drying. So these are like this sort of cyclonic, uh, conical, big. Big cones, uh, where we, uh, we spray the, the liquid with the biomass into these cones. And then there's hot air that then removes the rest of the water.

[00:17:50] Arttu: And then there's the end product is basically like a distraught dry powder similar to like milk powder, but has this kind of a yellowish color. Uh, the yellow color is because it's very rich on beta carrot on carotenoids, carotenoids, like beta carotene and things like that. And that is a natural color, uh, of, of this, uh, protein.

[00:18:09] Markus: Does your team already use it for, to, to feed themselves?

[00:18:12] Arttu: Um, I've had many, many solo industries, uh, uh, when, when I've been entertaining guests. So, so we actually at the factory, we have not only this big bio process, And I should, by the way, say that that 20, 000 liter bioreactor, which is, you know, like two and a half meters across and six meters tall, produced the same amount of protein that 300 dairy cows, same day, 300 cows,

[00:18:35] Markus: 10, 000 liters?

[00:18:36] Arttu: 000 liters.

[00:18:37] Markus: liters. 20, 000 liters.

[00:18:38] Arttu: So it's equal to 300 cows.

[00:18:41] Markus: This is crazy.

[00:18:42] Arttu: And all 50, uh, egg laying chickens, same, same protein output per day. So, so, uh, yes. And you asked about, you know, have we eaten it? Yes. Yes. Uh, we actually have a, uh, quite a sizable food team. So one thing is not only that you can produce an ingredient. But the second thing is how do you use it in recipes?

[00:19:03] Arttu: So we have a full, uh, team of, uh, food scientists who are developing applications or recipes for our product. Uh, and we also have a very, very excellent chef, you know, he's worked in Michelin star restaurants, fantastic. Uh, so he's our in house chef. Uh, and at the factory, we have a demo kitchen. That's, you know, if you come to the building and, you know, you should come, you should come and visit us.

[00:19:26] Arttu: You come to the building, there's this big atrium space. And then we have this big kitchen there, like open kitchen. Uh, and then, uh, me come on in and our sole chef then makes various sorts of dishes, uh, uh, for our guests. So if I need to, uh, mention some, some of my favorites, uh, one of my favorites is this, uh, cream cheese ravioli.

[00:19:50] Arttu: So in the pasta, the ravioli, uh, there's no egg. So the egg protein has been replaced by solene. Um, and then the cream cheese inside has no dairy. And it's delicious. One thing that Mika told me, which is quite exciting, was that, uh, uh, that, you know, for homemade pasta, solene actually works better than eggs.

[00:20:13] Arttu: Because when you make pasta, you know, you, you, you roll it out. It has this tendency of tearing, and you have to add, like, flour, and then when it tears, you need to roll it back into the bowl, and then lay out again. But for some techno mechanical property of solene, it doesn't tear. It doesn't tear as easily.

[00:20:29] Arttu: So he said, he says that he can make the pasta in like one third the time that it would take for like regular pasta now. Then there's my, one of my other favorites is ice cream. So we have solely an ice cream where there's no dairy. Uh, I don't know if you have ever had like a vegan ice cream, but it's, it's, it's a little bit disappointing.

[00:20:50] Arttu: Yes. So it lacks the creaminess and there's this watery aftertaste which kind of disappears right away. But, but solely an ice cream, even though it's completely vegan, dairy free, gluten free, uh, it has the same creaminess as, as regular ice cream does. And I think that's going to be a big, big deal. You

[00:21:10] Markus: know what, what, what's really interesting to me is that in fact all you need is water for all this and your bacterium, of

[00:21:17] Arttu: Right.

[00:21:19] Markus: Because I think we should be a lot more, even more appreciative of water. Because I think when it comes to space travel, water gives us propellant. And water gives us food. So this is, it's insane.

[00:21:34] Arttu: it's all, it's all centered around water. And actually, one of the, let's say, more debate, I mean, people often ask me, why, why, why do you do the space thing?

[00:21:40] Arttu: Why don't you just focus, try to fix mother, mothership earth? You know, you know, we have problems here and all that. But the, but the space challenge is a, is an excellent sort of a analog of a completely circular economy. So, so we're utilizing basically all the waste resources that are available and turning that into edible calories.

[00:21:59] Arttu: Uh, and you know, if we could actually utilize the same principles here in our cities, for instance, we, you know, we could basically make everything pretty much sort of environmentally neutral. I mean, that, that, that we wouldn't be. So our method of producing food is one, one of the greatest gifts that we can give for the planet is that we don't need to cut forests down into fields.

[00:22:20] Arttu: Uh,

[00:22:20] Markus: Kill

[00:22:21] Arttu: re yeah. And we can re. Forest, you know, vast areas of the planet, we can basically make, we can turn areas of the planet that we consider as incompatible with food production, we can turn those into breadbaskets. So we could, we could populate Sahara desert with factories because there's lots of solar power and wind power available.

[00:22:42] Markus: This sounds like a no brainer. So where's the catch? Where's the problem?

[00:22:46] Arttu: Uh, I think there's really no I mean, these things are expensive and, uh, slow. There are a couple of reasons for that. So one thing is that we are basically building a completely new infrastructure. Uh, so, so we can so called brownfield or repurpose, you know, existing factories.

[00:23:02] Arttu: We actually have to build the factories from the scratch. Uh, they are quite sizable investments. So this, uh, our factory or one that's in Finland, uh, you know, that was a 42 million euro investment. And it's just a scaling demonstrator. It's not a industrial scale plant. I mean, 160 tons or roughly 200 tons of protein per year sounds like a lot, but it's, it's, it's really not much at all.

[00:23:24] Arttu: So for us to be become an industrial protein production, uh, company, we need to scale that up by a factor of a hundred. And then you, then you start talking about capital investments that can range anywhere between a hundred to 300 million.

[00:23:37] Markus: Okay, but look at the investments in AI these days. So 300 million is nothing.

[00:23:42] Arttu: Well, AI is of course a lot different in terms of business because it has no capital expenditure or very little capital expenditure.

[00:23:48] Arttu: Uh, we are capital, uh, expenditure heavy. Uh, and it, it is a challenge to attract those kind of funds. For a company that's basically at pre revenue, uh, status. Because, because it's kind of a chicken and egg problem. That, you know, a lot of big food manufacturers are super interested about what we do. They would like to, they are potentially willing and very interested in using our protein as their ingredient.

[00:24:12] Arttu: But they have the question, can they actually produce it at the quantities that they say? Now, if we had some big food manufacturing company come to us and, you know, say that, okay, here's, here's a piece of paper. We will buy your full annual production of your next factory once you get it finished. That's a paper that we could go to bank with.

[00:24:30] Arttu: So the bank would loan the money, but, but the chicken and egg here is that, uh, big food manufacturers are very, very, you know, uh, careful on how, what they do and, and, you know, changing an ingredient in some major production line. It's also a kind of a capital. Uh, investment for them. So there's a risk, uh, which, which I think now there's like this little bit of a waiting that they, they want to see that we can produce that quantity.

[00:24:53] Arttu: We have now demonstrated the, our ability to scale without first factory, even though it's not at the. You know, 10, 000 tons for a billion meals, meals, meals, a year scale. But we believe that, you know, in the coming near future, I think this is going to happen.

[00:25:08] Markus: happen. How does this compare to the per capita costs, daily per capita costs for protein intake?

[00:25:15] Arttu: So, so at the moment at this scale that we're now, our price point is higher than let's say if you compare with a pea or soy. Uh, protein, uh, which is okay because we're actually now first at first we're focusing at sports and performance nutrition market in the US, uh, where the, uh, the tolerance for higher prices is there because it's a premium premium product.

[00:25:38] Arttu: We basically compete there with whey protein extract, but our protein is, uh, from a nutritional standpoint, it's superior, uh, and actually more palatable than whey protein. But, uh, but once we get to that sort of industrial scale, so 10, 000 tons per year, uh, our projections show that we will be actually price point competitive with P or soy or the other, know, vegetable based proteins.

[00:26:04] Arttu: So, so our idea is not to become like an elite,

[00:26:08] Markus: you

[00:26:08] Arttu: know, only for the rich, uh, uh, kind of a luxury protein. We want to become the everyday staple protein. So basically eliminating the use of. Uh, milk or eggs in, in many, you know, manufactured food goods, I

[00:26:26] Markus: could imagine that this is not super easy because this is a very traditional and very powerful and dominant industry.

[00:26:34] Markus: Sure. The dairy industry, the meat industry. So, do you currently even face headwind resistance from that side?

[00:26:45] Arttu: Uh, I personally, I can't really maybe comment on that very well, but, but obviously we, we are not in the, we don't want to get into this situation where it's either or that, you know, we're kind of against farmers or, you know, all that our argument would be that 40 percent of habitable land on the planet is currently used by agriculture.

[00:27:07] Arttu: So expanding agriculture is Probably not an option. One third of the greenhouse gas emissions, you know, anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions is due to the food system. So, so we really don't have much room to

[00:27:19] Markus: We still

[00:27:20] Arttu: We still have a population of the planet that's growing. So we need to address

[00:27:24] Markus: that.

[00:27:25] Markus: Um,

[00:27:27] Arttu: I think there could be a world and we are not arguing that people shouldn't eat meat or drink milk.

[00:27:32] Arttu: It's, it's not what we're saying. Not at all. But maybe even for farmers, it's a more attractive proposition that instead of Uh, producing this kind of, uh, low, you know, low margin everyday bulk protein, which is heavily subsidized by the way, could they maybe generate more profits from a, let's say more premium, uh, protein products like steaks and you know, whatnot.

[00:28:01] Arttu: So, so there's going to be some changes and obviously these things won't change overnight. There's also regulatory hurdles. So, so. Uh, we are considered, uh, as a novel food in Europe. Uh, novel foods are defined as foods which haven't been consumed in any substantial quantities before the year 1997. And that means that we need a regulatory approval, uh, in, in many markets.

[00:28:24] Arttu: So, in Europe, it's, it's the European Food Safety, uh, uh, Association that, uh, uh, does this. And it's a major, uh, it's a, it's a huge amount of work. Because you have to basically do Analytics in external accredited laboratories for everything like allergenicity, genome toxicity, the nutritional benefits, everything.

[00:28:43] Arttu: Uh, it costs millions and it takes years. Um, but we have now actually received our first regulatory approval first in Singapore, uh, in 2022. Uh, we filed in 2021 also for Europe, but the European approval is, is a bit slow. It's, we are expecting it to come out next year,

[00:29:01] Markus: 2026.

[00:29:03] Arttu: And in the U. S. we have now reached this, uh, what's called self affirmed grass.

[00:29:06] Arttu: So generally regarded as safe status, which allows us to now start, you know, selling here in the U. S.

[00:29:13] Markus: Interesting. So if money Was not an, uh, an issue. When would you be available to deliver at scale?

[00:29:22] Arttu: Uh, well building the factory takes some time, maybe a year or something, but, but if we started building it now, you know, maybe a year, year and a half time,

[00:29:30] Markus: Okay, let's go back into space. Um, so all you need is the water. You would need to dig for water.

[00:29:38] Markus: I mean, like, this is something that the space exploration is intending to do anyways, um, to find water. Is there a particular, do you think as a physicist that the water on Mars, for example, would that be, is that be a resource? Or do you, do we know if the water is a potable resource or a consumable resource on different planets?

[00:30:01] Markus: Celestial bodies, or could it be something that we cannot consume because it's the wrong water?

[00:30:07] Arttu: No, I, I, I think, I, I think, I mean, obviously you would probably, you would need to filter and purify it. Uh, I, I, I, I believe that the water will be, will be a consumable. Resource for drinking, but I also think that even though I mean, what are the major motivations for finding water on moon and Mars is the making of propellant.

[00:30:28] Arttu: Yes. Okay. So, so if you're thinking about quantities, you know, if you need, if you're making propellant, you're using tons and tons of water. So the kind of the human need for that is a microscopic fractional fraction of it. I still think that, uh, It makes sense, even if we're on moon and we have found big ice deposits, it still makes sense to close the loops and, you know, have the, have the kind of the, the biosphere as close as possible, because even though we have more ice on the moon and on Mars, you know, extracting it is probably still going to be somewhat expensive and the less you can.

[00:31:03] Arttu: The more you can save in your, you know, your environmental control life support system, it's better. Even though the quantities that the humans need in comparison to the quantities that the rockets need are, there's a vast difference in scales. As we all know, there is, there are Mars missions on the very near horizon.

[00:31:23] Arttu: I don't know if it's a reality, but,

[00:31:26] Markus: Um, SpaceX keep telling us that they want to start going in a couple of years even. So is there already, I mean, like, do you know if they have covered the, the, the, the, the food problem?

[00:31:39] Markus: Or is there a communication going on between you

[00:31:41] Arttu: Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a good question. I mean, SpaceX are not very open about what they do.

[00:31:47] Arttu: Um, I've not noticed that they would be having much activity at all at this stage on the food system

[00:31:55] Markus: Mm hmm.

[00:31:56] Arttu: Um, I think they're focusing on the, the more present issues, you know, they need to get Starship. Yes. You know, going and there's the orbital refueling and all these many, many things that they need to accomplish before even starting to think about going to moon.

[00:32:11] Arttu: So, so I believe that they are probably, they're probably scanning the landscape for potential solutions that could then be later incorporated as part of their, their habitats. Um, so I think it's a thing that they, they will activate. There's also, you know, NASA has also identified Uh, well, actually not NASA, but the National Academies in the U.

[00:32:35] Arttu: S. came out last, uh, late last year with their sort of what's called decadal survey for NASA. So they do this every 10 years, uh, and they identify like focus areas where NASA. Really put some effort into and, and one of the, uh, focus areas that, uh, the academies basically, uh, they suggest that NASA should 10, 10 fold increase their R& D efforts on bioregenerative life support, because that's going to be the one that will be needed once we start going to Mars and once we start having cities on Mars and everything.

[00:33:09] Arttu: So this bioregenerative life support systems, which is what we do, uh, is very much in the focus, uh, of, of, of the agencies. So I think, I think it, it, it's, it's a question of time. When, when does basics, you know, feel like, you know, now it's close enough that they have to start thinking about how we're gonna eat.

[00:33:24] Arttu: Uh, they have, you know, massive cargo capacity, so obviously they could, they potentially could be just sending all the food up there.

[00:33:32] Markus: they could, bring the sheep.

[00:33:34] Arttu: yeah. But, but it, but the, even though they have massive cargo capacity, um, you know, for a 500 day mission, you'll still have some issues with like food degradation over the time.

[00:33:46] Arttu: So having a fresh. Nutrition source on board is probably mandatory anyway.

[00:33:52] Markus: Yeah. So what do you think, uh, your personal, your personal take on, on our, um, interplanetary endeavors as humans?

[00:34:02] Markus: Because I keep, I keep pondering,

[00:34:03] Arttu: pondering

[00:34:05] Markus: um, on this show. Our very special pocket in time that we live in as humans, as homo sapiens, after 200, 000 years, we're finally literally growing wings and upward momentum. Um, do you think this is the moment? It's baby steps still, but do you think it's a moment where we're starting to leave the planet?

[00:34:26] Arttu: I think so. Um, I'm a little bit skeptical about like, uh, I mean, we're not so biology doesn't really do well space flight. You know, we're, we're, we're not designed to, to enjoy

[00:34:41] Markus: to kill us.

[00:34:42] Arttu: Yeah. Space will kill us. So, so I, I'm totally confident that, you know, mission human missions to Mars will happen sooner or later.

[00:34:51] Arttu: And I think it's also inevitable that we will have. Permanent presence there, uh, sooner or later, whether we will go even further. I don't know. I mean, you know, Jupiter is awfully far away, uh, and kind of a nasty environment to begin with. Um,

[00:35:07] Markus: with.

[00:35:09] Arttu: this ties in with AI. I mean, uh, so, so when it comes to like, uh, um, conquering the galaxy, I don't think we're going to do that as a biological species.

[00:35:20] Arttu: Uh, at this time,

[00:35:21] Markus: robots. Maybe

[00:35:22] Arttu: right. Van Allen, Van Allen probes, basically. So Van Allen probes are interesting because, you know, if you have, like, the self replicating capacity, you're basically conquering the galaxy in a million years, which is a, you know, which is a blink of an eye in the universe. Really? Yes, because of the exponential growth.

[00:35:37] Arttu: It's only a million years, which is incredible. There are some fantastic science fiction books on this, by the way, which I've quite recently read.

[00:35:44] Markus: recently read.

[00:35:45] Markus: What's the

[00:35:46] Arttu: Uh, Bobiverse. We are Bob. We

[00:35:49] Markus: are Bob.

[00:35:49] Arttu: Yeah, so it's about this, uh, software engineer who, uh, has his brain basically turned into silicon. He dies, and then he finds himself to be the controlling entity of a Van Allen probe.

[00:35:59] Arttu: And then he replicates himself to thousands of Bobs, uh, that then conquer the galaxy. It's hilarious. I, I recommend it.

[00:36:06] Markus: Fantastic. Um, let's, let's use that wonderful momentum. So we got, how far out is something like this? Is this pure science fiction or could we build some, I mean, like robotics is a growing thing at the moment. Right. So we have the AI. Um, the AI strand, but at the same time, there's a whole lot going on in robotics, as we know, it's not so popular.

[00:36:29] Arttu: Yep. But

[00:36:31] Markus: Where do we, do we stand in all of that? If we want to build those, those Van Allen bobs?

[00:36:38] Arttu: Uh, well, I, I guess, you know, with respect to like AI and large language models, I mean, things are Moving at the pace where it's difficult to follow what's happening.

[00:36:47] Arttu: Um, so I would assume that from a, let's say, purely controlling entities, intelligence, decision making. I think we're not that far away at all. Uh, I think the main difficulties there, uh, would probably reside in on how we extract resources from asteroids and turn that, those into

[00:37:08] Markus: Mm hmm.

[00:37:09] Arttu: So, so, you know, having the technology extract ore from an asteroid and then turning that into space.

[00:37:14] Arttu: Metal, uh, and then, you know, shaping that metal and welding it and all these sort of thing. How to, how to replicate machines that replicate themselves, uh, is really the, uh, I, I, I guess we could call it the singularity. I

[00:37:28] Markus: But it's like, it's like the stem cells we have in our bodies that differentiate them into all the things you want. So this is, this is the Van Allen idea.

[00:37:38] Arttu: yes. Sorry, Von Neumann probes. Ah,

[00:37:41] Markus: Ah, von

[00:37:42] Arttu: probes, yes. Not Van Allen. Von Neumann. Mathematician who came up with this idea. Um, so, so, so yeah. But indeed, the, the, the singularity is when we learn to design machines that can then replicate themselves and design new

[00:37:57] Markus: machines

[00:37:58] Arttu: Uh, that's probably still some time away. I mean, decades, if not, before we can reach actually that kind of autonomy. But things are moving at exponential scale, so it's very difficult to look in the future. You always look in the past and it's kind of linear, but, but, you know, when you're on an exponential curve, you know, you, it's, it's very, very

[00:38:17] Markus: it would be that it's very, very difficult to see.

[00:38:27] Arttu: live in space? I think so.

[00:38:30] Markus: of Earth.

[00:38:31] Arttu: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I, I, you know, I, I think this colonization or settlement of Mars is maybe the better term. Uh, we'll happen in the next, I think in the 2040s, yeah.

[00:38:43] Arttu: Yeah.

[00:38:44] Markus: I recently spoke with, um, a planetary scientist, uh, Lu Lujano, uh, is from La Sza University. Mm-hmm . He was part of the Casini mission.

[00:38:54] Arttu: Oh, wow.

[00:38:54] Markus: And, um, and he said he only as, as a planetary scientist, he finds it, um, entertaining. That we keep forgetting Elon Musk keeps forgetting the radiation problem

[00:39:07] Arttu: right?

[00:39:07] Markus: because there is you as a physicist will notice a lot better than there is no solution on the horizon whatsoever how to deal with radiation.

[00:39:18] Markus: And he said that 50 percent of space travelers will not come home again after a Mars mission. So would you agree to this?

[00:39:26] Arttu: Absolutely. I mean, when we are orbiting the earth at, you know, the ISS height, 450 kilometers, we are protected by the Van Allen Belts.

[00:39:34] Arttu: That's where I got the, yeah, so, so, so the, the radiation environment that the ISS is actually pretty benign, but as soon as you leave earth orbit and, and kind of the magnetic bubble that our, our, uh, mag magnetosphere, uh, produces. Indeed, you are subject to, you know, massive amounts of radiation primarily from the sun.

[00:39:56] Arttu: So, you know, the sun is producing flares and coronal mass

[00:39:59] Markus: ejections,

[00:40:00] Arttu: Uh, there's lots of also x rays and gamma rays. You have like this incredibly, uh, energetic cosmic particles. I think I read somewhere that some of these particles have the same kinetic energy as a baseball when it's thrown.

[00:40:12] Markus: No. Yes.

[00:40:14] Arttu: So, so, you know, little particle with that sort of kinetic energy has, you know, potential to cause enormous amount of, uh, uh, damage.

[00:40:22] Arttu: to your DNA and all that. Um, so yeah, I mean, it's, it is a big problem. I'm sure for all biology, including humans, people are looking at, uh, how do, can we produce shelters, maybe having the water reservoir of the ship kind of shielding one part of the ship. So if there's a big sort of radiation event that the crew would shelter there,

[00:40:44] Markus: a bit of mass. You

[00:40:45] Arttu: quite a bit of mass and I'm not sure I really not an expert on this field.

[00:40:48] Arttu: So, so I don't know how, how effective will that be. But it's, it's absolutely true. I mean, so maybe you send all the old people because old people actually deal with radiation better than, than young people. So, so send 80 year olds.

[00:41:01] Markus: You mean like because of the time span left?

[00:41:04] Arttu: Oh, it,

[00:41:05] Markus: Or of the cell, because the cells divide slower?

[00:41:08] Arttu: Exactly. Yeah. Right. So, so, so old people deal with radiation apparently better than, than young people.

[00:41:14] Markus: I like that.

[00:41:15] Markus: That's, that would be a nice headline. Send, send old

[00:41:18] Arttu: yeah, octogenarians. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:41:21] Markus: Fantastic. You were far from being an octogenarian, but would you go?

[00:41:26] Arttu: Absolutely. I actually was an astronaut candidate in 2008.

[00:41:29] Arttu: You

[00:41:29] Markus: You were?

[00:41:30] Arttu: So I applied for isa. Uh. Because it's been a dream. Uh, and I thought they, what, what the hell, you know, let's put my application in. I actually got pretty far. I got to the last 2 percent out of the 14, 000 applicants. So yeah, so there was 192 of us left when I got disqualified. I was, I think a little bit old.

[00:41:48] Arttu: I was 38 at a time. Um, so, and they only like hire like 20 year olds, so, so I didn't get to go, but it was a super interesting, uh,

[00:41:58] Markus: Is it still, like, in the Apollo days that you need to be the superhero type person, like the, uh, the, the athlete, uh, the

[00:42:06] Arttu: well, you have to be in relatively good shape.

[00:42:08] Arttu: Um, I mean, uh, and you have to be stable, mentally stable, and you have to be kind of resilient, uh, very good at multitasking. Um, so yeah, I mean, you have to have pretty good cogni cognition and, you know. Coordination and whatnot. Uh, I didn't actually get to the point where we, we were, uh, subject to like any physical testing.

[00:42:28] Arttu: So it was all psychological

[00:42:30] Markus: Okay.

[00:42:30] Arttu: throughout those, those stages that I went through. Uh, but yeah, you have to be in shape because obviously it's a big investment to an astronaut and the agencies want to have a good shelf life, uh, you know, that if you have to wait for a flight

[00:42:43] Markus: know,

[00:42:44] Arttu: wait for that long, but

[00:42:45] Markus: normal. Yeah, exactly. So I think, you know,

[00:42:50] Arttu: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But absolutely. And, and I think it's also the access to space is very much changing thanks to, uh, because it's becoming cheaper. So. So I think, you know, because until now, I can't remember what's the exact number, but it's only like 200 humans that have been up there. I mean, it's not a large number of people, but that will change, uh, thanks to the fact that, uh, that the launch costs are lower.

[00:43:15] Arttu: You know, if Starship, once it's ready, there's a passenger version. There could be a hundred passengers that go up on a single launch. Uh, so those seats are going to be a lot less expensive than, than the seats currently. So, so I think in the future we will have regular people, not just billionaires and millionaires, but also regular people will actually get access to space.

[00:43:35] Arttu: So is

[00:43:36] Markus: So is Finland's place in space in the future nutrition?

[00:43:41] Arttu: mean, Finnish space ecosystem is actually everything else but this. Uh, so Finland, uh, amongst one of the last member states of ESA. Uh, we joined the human and robotic exploration program, the E3P program, only in 2022. So Finland has had no exploration related ESA activity, uh, basically, until now.

[00:44:02] Arttu: Uh, we are, Finland is, you know, very good at doing other things in space, so we have some incredible companies like, uh, IceEye. IceEye is a, it was a startup that started building, uh, synthetic aperture radar satellites. And they are the market leader, currently, globally, market leader, uh, of, of, uh, you know, uh, having a fleet of, uh, synthetic aperture radar satellites.

[00:44:26] Markus: What is that?

[00:44:27] Arttu: So, so synthetic aperture radar is basically, it's a radar. So it's got, it's got this kind of a boom that has these transceivers that are sending radio frequency signals down to earth. And then they are measuring the echo and they basically, there's no lens or telescope, but they, they, the lens or the telescope is in the software.

[00:44:46] Arttu: So the software basically does the transformations to turn those echoes into images. And because it's a radar, it means that it's a ranging instrument. They actually get like 3d. So it's very good at doing things like tracking ships or tracking traffic on, on ground or looking at, uh, uh, you know, morphological changes on the, on the ground due to maybe floods and things like that.

[00:45:09] Arttu: Uh, very, very important for military. Uh, so I actually have, so Ukraine is usually actually some of ice ice satellites for, for their, uh, intelligence gathering. Uh, then we have Kuvaspace and other company, uh, Kuvaspace is doing a little bit similar things, but they are building what's called hyperspectral imaging satellites.

[00:45:29] Arttu: So they have basically, uh, these very, very clever sensors that can measure. Optical light at very broad, uh, bandwidth so they could do visible light, you know, near infrared, uh, and then, and potentially UV. So, so that, that, that is super useful for, for people like farmers, because they can look at the growth cycles of plants and all this, and, and, um, hydration of fields and growth of the plants and crops and whatnot.

[00:45:58] Arttu: And they also going up there. Uh, then we have lots of communication. business in space. So actually Nokia, unfortunately,

[00:46:07] Markus: is still around?

[00:46:08] Arttu: no, yeah, yeah. But they are mostly on the network side. So the, so the mobile is a handset business. It doesn't exist anymore, but, but Nokia is actually the company that's building a 4g network on the moon. So there will be a cell phone network. You'll get the internet on the moon. Uh, they actually had a, some instrumentation on the Uh, moon lander that unfortunately kind of tilted on its side two days ago. Uh, I am too intelligent, intelligent machines, uh, lunar lander. So Nokia had something on board, uh, of that lander.

[00:46:38] Markus: lander. Fantastic. Um, Artu, you already mentioned you would immediately go into space.

[00:46:44] Markus: What would be your favorite place to be?

[00:46:47] Arttu: I think the moon.

[00:46:48] Markus: The moon,

[00:46:48] Arttu: Yeah. Mars is too far. Uh, yeah. Too far, too early. But moon, yeah. Definitely.

[00:46:57] Markus: I'm asking because we have a playlist on Spotify and the playlist is called the playlist for the aspiring space traveler. And each guest gets to contribute one of their tunes they would not want to miss on that boring journey,

[00:47:10] Arttu: Okay.

[00:47:11] Markus: which is, what's, what's your contribution?

[00:47:13] Arttu: Ah, let's see. I'm trying to remember the name of the song now. This, this progressive rock band that I used to listen to a lot. So Rush,

[00:47:22] Markus: Rush, fantastic. Rush,

[00:47:23] Arttu: Uh, they have, what is it called? Countdown, but they actually made a, they made a song about the launch of the space shuttle, the first launch of the space shuttle. And it has this wonderful kind of a buildup to the, you know, the countdown and it's very, very sort of space.

[00:47:39] Markus: Fantastic. Um, and last question. This show is called the Space Café Podcast. Coffee place.

[00:47:47] Markus: We're not having coffee, by the

[00:47:48] Arttu: Oh, yeah, yeah,

[00:47:49] Markus: We should. Um, Anyways, um, now and then you go into coffee places to get a shot of energy by drinking an espresso, strong coffee. I would like to challenge you now to share an espresso for the mind with me, for the audience. What could be a shot of inspiration you can think of for the audience?

[00:48:10] Markus: What could be an inspiring,

[00:48:12] Arttu: um, idea you would

[00:48:13] Markus: idea you would like to share?

[00:48:15] Arttu: a small question. Any kind of

[00:48:17] Markus: Any kind of

[00:48:18] Arttu: kind of topic. Wow. That's a big idea.

[00:48:22] Markus: Take your time. Yeah.

[00:48:28] Arttu: Uh, okay. I mean, I guess it's, uh, it's not an idea, but, but, um, let's say, uh, a state of mind. Uh, have faith, be hopeful. Uh, even though the today's world of politics, everything looks like terrible. We have wars, everything going on. Uh, but we're really just only starting a species. Uh, there are big problems with the environment, climate change and all that, but we're already coming up with solutions that will fix that.

[00:48:58] Arttu: So, so especially for the young kids, you know, the teenagers who may be feeling a little bit, let's say stressed out about their future. Have faith. It's all going to work out.

[00:49:10] Markus: Fantastic. I think, um, what each and everyone can do is to also work on our own software to improve ourselves as human beings. So not only improve the technology, but also improve ourselves as humans.

[00:49:26] Arttu: And have that space perspective. I mean, it's the, somebody actually said this during the, during the festival here, that it should be mandatory that our leaders were set up to the space station for like two months and figure things out together. Because, because

[00:49:40] Markus: locked

[00:49:41] Arttu: locked in the space station for two months, you know, have Xi and Trump and Putin and everybody go up there because once you get the space perspective, uh,

[00:49:51] Markus: overview

[00:49:52] Arttu: effect where you realize that, you know, what a fragile little planet we have, you see no borders, uh, we are, we are sharing the same biosphere.

[00:50:04] Arttu: It's time to cast away this, uh, Cro Mannian, uh, uh, mentality of, you know, tribalism, uh, you know, having sticks, beating each other, now the sticks are nukes.

[00:50:17] Markus: said that's what we're doing right now.

[00:50:19] Arttu: Right, right. I mean

[00:50:20] Markus: because we are lacking the perspective.

[00:50:22] Arttu: are lacking the perspective, and I, if there's anything that worries me, it's of course the fact that You know, if we compare ourselves from an intelligence standpoint to Cro Manians, you know, the humans of 100, 000 years ago, we are not any more intelligent than they were.

[00:50:38] Arttu: Uh, but our technology We have now the technology and the capacity to, uh, uh, re enormous destruction with the same intelligence that we had a hundred thousand years ago, but with technology that has basically, you know, planetary, uh, influence. So, so there we need to improve ourselves. That's crazy. We, we need to have, we need to understand the responsibility that that brings, that we're not smarter, but we have these tools.

[00:51:02] Markus: have better sticks.

[00:51:03] Arttu: We, we have better sticks, yeah. Mm-hmm . Right? Right. So, so that, that's

[00:51:07] Markus: So we could in fact sit. here with a person from a hundred thousand years ago and have a conversation provided we speak the same language, have a conversation.

[00:51:19] Markus: They would maybe marvel at the world we built, the sticks we have, the cars, the new horses we're

[00:51:27] Arttu: using,

[00:51:28] Markus: using, but still we could have a meaningful discussion.

[00:51:31] Arttu: Absolutely. And that's actually the interesting, the times perspective when you go back, and this actually is a good way to kind of visualize exponential growth. Is that if you take the person from 100, 000 years ago and you take him to 10, 000 years ago, he would barely notice a difference,

[00:51:52] Markus: That's right. take

[00:51:54] Arttu: person from 10, 000 years ago, take him a thousand years ago. Again, some difference, you know, okay, there is like, okay, agriculture, uh, some, some pretty big change, but not, not nothing that, you know, would. And now you take the person from a thousand years ago into today's world. Yes. Uh, you know, they would, they would faint.

[00:52:15] Arttu: Yes. Yeah. So, so, so.

[00:52:18] Markus: Let's take our grandparents.

[00:52:19] Markus: I mean, like, my grandparents are not alive anymore, but they started in the beginning of the 20th century.

[00:52:28] Arttu: Right.

[00:52:28] Markus: So just imagine there was no, I mean, like you had the cars, the beginning of the cars and the trains and

[00:52:34] Arttu: My grandfather was born in 1898.

[00:52:36] Arttu: 1898. 1898. So he's dead, he's long gone, but you know, imagine the world of 1898 and bring him today's world. He would have some time to, had some challenge to deal with things, I'm sure.

[00:52:51] Markus: Artu, what do we do with that? What do we do with this, um, understanding? Because it's getting ever more intense. The, the time spans we need to get in our minds, in our heads, are getting ever smaller and smaller and ever more things are happening.

[00:53:09] Arttu: Right. Yeah, I mean it's, it's good to be offline a while, you know, enjoy the nature.

[00:53:15] Markus: Finland.

[00:53:15] Arttu: In Finland, we, everybody has a mökki, so, you know, like a country place. So you go there, have sauna, you know, you look at the lakes, you listen to the birds.

[00:53:24] Markus: Do you do That

[00:53:25] Arttu: yes, yes. Uh, it's, it's really, I need to do it.

[00:53:28] Arttu: Regularly to keep myself sane. Nothing beats like a sauna and the, and the, you know, sunset and the birds singing and that is the best. And then I'm not, then you're not worried about things in the world.

[00:53:43] Markus: Arthur, thank you so much for taking that time.

[00:53:45] Arttu: No, it's been a pleasure. Thank you, Marcus.

[00:53:48] Markus: isn't that crazy? Water and microbes, all you need. It's just water. It's really The source of life, it seems. I mean, like, you can use water as a rocket fuel, you can use it to, to hydrate yourself, and you can use it to produce protein. What an ingenious solution nature has provided. Really, really interesting.

[00:54:12] Markus: So, um, if you liked the show, the content you heard, as much as I did, Please consider sharing it with a friend. Just pass it on to someone where you think, Hey, this could be of interest to someone as a gift, um, like out of nowhere. What a surprise that could be. Just think about it. Who could be a person that could be interested in something like that?

[00:54:37] Markus: Other than that, please find us on Substack. Yes, we found our way to Substack. I keep writing, um, posts now and then. So please subscribe on Substack. Um, other than that, you'll find me on LinkedIn and yeah, I'm looking forward to sharing crazy news stories with you in two weeks from now. Thanks for listening.

[00:55:00] Markus: Thanks for your loyalty. Bye bye.