Former Space Agency Head: The Real Reason We Aren't on the Moon (It's Not Technology)

Giorgio Saccoccia – former President of the Italian Space Agency (ASI), propulsion engineer, and lifelong “space fan.” From lunar outposts and electric thrusters to space-as-diplomacy, Saccoccia brings four decades of insight into turning quick “flags-and-footprints” missions into a permanent human presence beyond Earth.

Key Moments

⏱ Time Topic
| 00:00:20  | Bootprints vs. Blueprints – Why Apollo was a sprint and why Artemis (or its successor) must be about settlement, not headlines.
| 00:02:34  | Technology, Then & Now – Interfaces, autonomy, data, and why ISRU plus small nuclear reactors will make the lunar south pole viable.
| 00:06:47  | Risk, Politics & Timing – Modern risk tolerances, geopolitics, and what still has to be fixed before Artemis-3 can launch.
| 00:13:14  | The Storytelling Vision – From exploration “genes” to concrete incentives for returning to the Moon (science, resources, sustainability).
| 00:22:00  | Space as Diplomacy – Salyut, Skylab, ISS, Gateway and how shared hardware keeps dialogue alive when terrestrial politics fracture.
| 00:35:34  | Public–Private Tandem – Why big missions (Moon bases, Mars) will remain a joint venture between agencies and entrepreneurs.
| 00:38:14  | Propulsion Futures – Chemical for launch/landing, electric (ion & Hall-effect) for cargo logistics; Smart-1, BepiColombo, and saving tonnes of propellant.
| 00:57:36  | Italy & Europe’s Niche – Pressurised modules, lunar-hab know-how, and the political heft of a united EU in exploration.
| 01:05:00  | Essential Qualities for 2040 Leaders – Curiosity and passion: the timeless fuel for the next generation of space pioneers.
| 01:06:25  | Personal Touches – Playlist pick: Pink Floyd’s “Eclipse” and why a macchiato captures Saccoccia’s philosophy of balanced openness.

Relevant Links & References

• ESA Exploration Programme – https://www.esa.int/Exploration
• NASA Artemis Overview – https://www.nasa.gov/specials/artemis/
• ASI (Italian Space Agency) – https://www.asi.it
• BepiColombo Mission – https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Space_Science/BepiColombo
• SMART-1 Electric-Propulsion Legacy – https://sci.esa.int/web/smart-1
• ISS Modules & Partnership – https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/structure/elements/index.html

Spread the Cosmic Love!

If Giorgio’s pragmatic-but-visionary roadmap fired your thrusters, share this episode with engineers, policy-wonks, and dreamers who see exploration as humanity’s best peace project.

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Transcript

MASTER: SCP_135_Giorgio Saccoccia

[00:00:00] Giorgio Saccoccia: To me the value of such a project is incredible is enormous is really technological advancement becoming an instruments for peace for peace [00:00:10] or at least to maintain the status quo when things get difficult on earth you turn your eyes to something which is happening in space and try to think [00:00:20] how goodwill was the moment when this uh project was conceived 

[00:00:24] Markus: Hello everyone. This is the Space Cafe Podcast, and I'm Markus, [00:00:30] so technically. There is no doubt that we have the means. We have the ability [00:00:40] as a technological civilization to go back to the moon. There's no question, but I. Are we really ready? And this is the big question [00:00:50] that we're discussing today with no other than Georgia Sacha.

[00:00:53] Markus: He's the former president of the Italian Space Agency and the current advisor to [00:01:00] the International Astronomical Federation. He's a big shot person in the space industry. He has huge. Understanding and in fact his [00:01:10] roots in engineering and propulsion technologies. And of course, this is a topic I didn't want to miss to touch upon.

[00:01:18] Markus: Because I [00:01:20] truly wanted to find out where we stand. Is chemical propulsion truly the only thing to get us from A to B, or is there something else we should be looking into and allows? [00:01:30] We're not only looking into something where we're already employing new forms of technology and technology to get us from a two P.

[00:01:39] Markus: [00:01:40] So, um, without further ado, well hold on a sec, uh, a second. There's one thing I'd like to ask you before we hit it off. If you have the time, my friends, please consider [00:01:50] giving this show a rating or a star or two if you like, on your favorite podcast platform. This is the only [00:02:00] language, the internet and the algorithms understand, and this would.

[00:02:04] Markus: Help us propel the show into evermore, um, [00:02:10] rich, and to get it out, to get the word out there where it should be. So, um, and of course this is an invitation to you. If you want to speak your [00:02:20] mind, tell me that something is going wrong or. Tell me how great everything is, or you even want to suggest a guest for the show, please [00:02:30] send a message to podcast at Space Watch Global.

[00:02:35] Markus: Um, that will be highly appreciated. So, uh, without further [00:02:40] ado, welcome Giorgio Sacha to the Space Cafe Podcast. Let's go.

[00:02:45]

[00:02:47] Markus: Will we see a human [00:02:50] moon landing human boots on the ground in the next five to 10 years

[00:02:55] Giorgio Saccoccia: A hundred million dollars question you are asking me [00:03:00] Uh My personal opinion is that uh we are um being we are perfectly conditioned [00:03:10] to establish again uh put on on the moon short uh very short term It's more a question of um [00:03:20] uh priorities of willingness and also uh of um uh educated decisions on what to [00:03:30] actually want to do out of that because um we went on we went to the moon already decades ago Uh but it was a very short state [00:03:40] as uh as we all know it was more uh intended to be a demonstration of the fact that we could go there showing [00:03:50] um superiority superiority That's that's obvious But to me as as a as a space fan since I was a child [00:04:00] and I remember those uh those moments even if I was a child uh it was also the demonstration you want when you want being for whatever [00:04:10] reason decide to uh advance in technology to really innovate They're coupled to do it in a short term and with extreme success So we can do it again We are in the position [00:04:20] to to do it again We're working already uh internationally to do it Um when we reach this [00:04:30] moment it'll depend on on uh on uh alignment of uh geopolitical uh conditions that as we all know [00:04:40] are quite an evolution nowadays So so the answer is basically linked to that I repeat technologically and and uh [00:04:50] um Uh readiness wise we we can do it We can do it very very soon 

[00:04:58] Markus: Or do we stand in terms of [00:05:00] technology as opposed to the Apollo years? The Apollo decade today is this, um, a completely [00:05:10] different generation today when it comes to. The available technology to repeat, um, um, this feet or [00:05:20] where do we stand? 

[00:05:21] Giorgio Saccoccia: Absolutely We are talking about uh differences in technologies and in technological technological [00:05:30] approach in some the way we'll use this technology As I mentioned before uh the Apollo project was conceived to [00:05:40] to a very short stay on the surface of the moon Uh and it was a quick and fast procurement was was Part of [00:05:50] the of the Cold War you want So starting from the procurement approach um there was a [00:06:00] there was a well orchestrated um overall design of the Apollo elements not so much time was [00:06:10] spent on for example on interfaces Uh it's quite iconic in the the movie um Apollo

[00:06:19] Markus: Apollo.[00:06:20]

[00:06:20] Giorgio Saccoccia: the um but absolutely true the story of the during the emergency they had to make compatible uh the use of a of a of a [00:06:30] filter Her filter uh developed for the lunar module with a with a the the place [00:06:40] where it was located in the in the in the service module sorry in the in the common module And they were completely different items So No [00:06:50] time at all was spent to make it to make it compatible to think about uh um to think about um um for example serious [00:07:00] production Not at all There were two separate contractors but was saving time because we they could avoid any type of interfaces within completely different teams et [00:07:10] cetera the approach will be different has to be different because of course there is also an issue Economy scale There's an issue of sustainability and [00:07:20] and capability to production of of those items for for um for a long term Because the idea is to go back to the moon to stay to stay to [00:07:30] develop a new human there Um so this a first uh answer to your question is something that absolutely [00:07:40] already determined a different approach for technology and the technology which is needed The other subject still linked to that is is autonomy In general The idea is that you [00:07:50] explore making sure that you don't need to bring everything with you from Earth You will be you should be in a position to um to be [00:08:00] as autonomous as possible to even produce in sea to what is needed to to build infrastructure to [00:08:10] uh to feed your the the propellant tank of your of your engines Even one day You need to pro to to [00:08:20] secure and produce what you need for humans to uh to uh to eat and and drink So um All these requires technology that at [00:08:30] the time were completely neglected And then of course uh uh there is uh a lot which will be linked to the utilization of data to the um analysis and [00:08:40] use of of of uh the data that will be necessary to not only to uh to be returned to herd for science [00:08:50] accessible So to carry out the missions And on this we have an incredible capacity with respect to what was the situation in the sixties We went to [00:09:00] the moon with a with a the computer capacity which was not even what we have in a in a in a fraction of our mobile phones today [00:09:10] Today the the the niche is completely completely uh completely different So we can do it we're can do it much better of course to [00:09:20] this incredible um um technology innovation which uh that we have developed in between Uh but all this also comes with extra extra [00:09:30] constraints that we need to analyze and put at fruition

[00:09:35] Markus: Are we thinking too much these days?

[00:09:36] Markus: I mean, 

[00:09:37] Markus: like, 

[00:09:37] Markus: it seems like we're dancing around [00:09:40] um going back to the moon Um 

[00:09:42] Markus: I mean like

[00:09:43] Markus: we've heard this for decades now that we're ready and we're going in five years we're going 10 years in [00:09:50] 15 years

[00:09:50] Markus: But where is Artemis at the moment in the public eye? This is a dance around a topic that is not really.

[00:09:59] Markus: Um, [00:10:00] clearly understood outside um, 

[00:10:03] Markus: the inner circles So where do we stand with the Artemis 

[00:10:07] Markus: program 

[00:10:08] Markus: at the moment [00:10:10] and when are the next key moments What are the next key moments for the project 

[00:10:15] Markus: I. 

[00:10:15] Giorgio Saccoccia: Well again of course my my personal analysis of the the scenarios that [00:10:20] is that uh again there are aspects that are um Political nature that of course are unpredictable and different difficult to to discuss [00:10:30] about uh that will dictate uh when the next steps of the Artis program will uh will uh will take place There are technical aspects that need to [00:10:40] be still addressed Uh we had a very very successful first um Artemis mission that uh was used to collect a lot of data on [00:10:50] on on the capability of the of the system to carry out future future missions Uh there were aspects [00:11:00] that uh clearly um required new new Redesign or or or or intervention take intervention that are being [00:11:10] carried out uh or are being worked at the moment talking about the thermal protection systems et cetera So this this is a normal process if you [00:11:20] want of a of a classical uh space space project uh evolution One step after the other one of course first of all what is at [00:11:30] stake of course is the is the is the safety of the of the um future uh future restaurants Uh [00:11:40] if I want to compare with the situation uh the time of the Apollo program for sure there [00:11:50] was also at the time despite the fact that we're still Talking about the same players institutional players agencies et cetera At the [00:12:00] time again the the driver was different was was really a race And um this in my opinion was also dictating [00:12:10] um acceptability of risks which may be today And I'm happy about that Of course we uh we wouldn't accept So um [00:12:20] so it's not procrastinating it's not being too cautious It's simply making sure that uh um that space is uh is safe is [00:12:30] someone could see this as an old fashioned approach to space mean we we have been for [00:12:40] for for years and years thinking about space as something where failure was not an option By definition once you send something to [00:12:50] space So far intervene on it If

[00:12:55] Markus: Hmm.

[00:12:56] Giorgio Saccoccia: despite of the failure of course more and more over the year you could [00:13:00] intervene and do something particular when whenever there were software related aspect on the hardware on on on on on aspect uh uh where we could not [00:13:10] directly intervene It was impossible to uh to accept uh uh risk Therefore um element of a of a of quality and [00:13:20] product assurance have been developed specifically for space to make sure that mission the public money required to do those mission was invested [00:13:30] and and transforming into projects uh the money were were spent and there were no risk associated to Whoever of in particular in the in [00:13:40] the human chain involved in the development Today's space has also a completely different flavor Not I'm not talking about human emissions of [00:13:50] course but uh we have been uh uh used to um to see uh a more uh can I say dynamic approach [00:14:00] to space missions uh uh a much higher level of risk acceptability in particular from from the new private players we see [00:14:10] uh satellite being launched after very short uh time since uh the project was uh maybe initiated low level of investment [00:14:20] So it's it's nice and easy to look at those cases as the new space the way we should be doing it But still [00:14:30] space is not it is a complex business It's a is a is a rather um rather Uh extreme and innovating uh [00:14:40] field innovative field We have uh uh there are some areas where still we cannot at all uh afford the risks you get [00:14:50] to this situation simply uh by trial and error We've seen this we see this with the new some many new new players [00:15:00] Or you do this um doing all the possible tests and assess before launching your item to orbit which is more the the the old uh the [00:15:10] old uh approach that which demonstrates to be very successful But again um you need this you need this in procurement that are one being involved [00:15:20] So it's important to separate the two things I hear often and and I'm not happy about that I are often making very superficial comments [00:15:30] about how now um uh why we keep on behaving postponing Uh need to be very cautious in any in any case in [00:15:40] particular insist when there are human being involved and going to the moon because that's what you're talking about of course implies to a a human being And uh and we need to [00:15:50] be absolutely sure that uh risks that always remain are really reduced to a minimum

[00:15:58] Markus: What is the, the [00:16:00] overall vision?

[00:16:01] Markus: Um, 

[00:16:02] Markus: I'm asking as a storyteller what is the main vision to go back to the moon Because [00:16:10] back in the a 

[00:16:10] Markus: holidays the vision was very clear It was a very simple race between two superpowers Um what is today's [00:16:20] vision And I'm asking this again I'm repeating myself as a storyteller because we know that

[00:16:26] Markus: with a strong vision engineering [00:16:30]

[00:16:30] Markus: and 

[00:16:30] Markus: the rest falls into place um more easily 

[00:16:34] Markus: So 

[00:16:34] Markus: I'm just asking why are we going back to the moon Is it just to to do it again [00:16:40] or is there a stronger incentive 

[00:16:43] Giorgio Saccoccia: Well first of all um exploration is is in the genes of uh of human beings So [00:16:50] uh uh as we discussed we went yes to the moon but it was like uh uh knowing that there is a new region to be explored on earth Going there [00:17:00] once and then okay you have done it That's it Uh no there are further steps where you decide to go there You have opened the path You want to go there to [00:17:10] establish your uh your um outpost You want to understand that how to lead there What can you do there Uh if there [00:17:20] are resources to be exploited if you can do other things science uh set up a new new uh [00:17:30] way of uh of uh even uh society I mean why not This has happened our on earth and region um [00:17:40] new So dyna dynamic uh human being who are uh who live in a in um not easy place [00:17:50] are also um capable to to innovate and to decide uh how to invent ways to To [00:18:00] to survive and to develop that are then um capable to be transferred back to the to the classical way [00:18:10] where where you want being live Um leaving on on the moon will mean certainly investing a lot on on [00:18:20] sustainability and capability to to uh reduce uh to a minimum waste and re of resources et cetera I think would be invaluable What we can uh [00:18:30] learn out of uh a group of people uh living and working on the moon that we can transfer back to our old and and and unfortunately spoiled the [00:18:40] spoiled the earth there are an incredible number of reasons that uh justify this as much as uh [00:18:50] industrial humanity We have done it in uh for other for other locations A lot is said also about using the moon as the [00:19:00] as the uh starting point for further exploration for sure Um there are element of uh of uh of truth in it and [00:19:10] um we need to be also further explor So uh is is I would I would consider as a natural process for [00:19:20] uh human being to you have seen it already in the past and we will continue to do it forever until until we'll exist[00:19:30]

[00:19:30] Markus: Do we

[00:19:31] Markus: like 

[00:19:31] Markus: from a very practical perspective do we already know when it comes to

[00:19:37] Markus: Um, setting up shop on the moon and [00:19:40] finding the energy, resources, meaning especially water,

[00:19:44] Markus: um, where to go Do we know where the water the the ice pockets are where [00:19:50] we would need to go to in order to be able to refuel and build up um,

[00:19:55] Markus: Habitat sustainable habitats 

[00:19:58] Giorgio Saccoccia: Well um [00:20:00]

[00:20:00] Giorgio Saccoccia: something that happened for sure after the sixties until now um uh about the moon is that we we explore it [00:20:10] at distance We know we know really a lot about the moon There have been uh uh thousands of scientists and missions of [00:20:20] serving the moon um at distance that have provided data that the allow us to decide where to go once we decide to [00:20:30] establish our settlement There You mentioned water Water of course is is is the thing that that we we look for in a in a new place by definitions [00:20:40] And um for this reason the south pole of the moon has been identified as as um the most suitable place to set the first uh [00:20:50] Very outpost because there are areas which remain craters that remain um always in uh in the dark So there is high [00:21:00] probability to find ice there uh are very interest also from the scientific point of view because we can uh expect that uh things uh uh remain there Uh maybe [00:21:10] unchanged not modified by by sublimation of substances for exposure to the sun et cetera and so on and so [00:21:20] forth I'm not an expert so I I what I'm saying is what I read uh for sure there are other areas in the moon that for example from a [00:21:30] geological point of view are are are even more attractive um in particular for the search of possible resources that we can bring back to Earth We talk about [00:21:40] idio idiom three as you as we know or rather uh or rather Uh elements Um but those in those areas there is a lower opportunity to [00:21:50] find the water So again for a human establishment the preference goes to where where we can find water going back to technology [00:22:00] uh to the south pole of the moon in in areas which will be in darkness implies that we cannot count on [00:22:10] utilization of uh solar energy of course will uh is is been a new push for the development of uh uh nuclear [00:22:20] uh that we can 

[00:22:22] Markus: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:23] Giorgio Saccoccia: can use in that area So again uh the the target a [00:22:30] reason for Teron advancement And this is fantastic also because this is the way we we innovate and we have plans from a technology point of view We know there are several [00:22:40] projects and going from this point of view whatever we will develop in this sense we can also use we'll use back on earth for other application for sure or for other [00:22:50] element of uh space exploration in the future

[00:22:53] Markus: Observing the

[00:22:54] Markus: current 

[00:22:55] Markus: political climate um, globally and

[00:22:59] Markus: [00:23:00] different 

[00:23:00] Markus: versions of what we as a humanity want to do and want to pursue What dreams to pursue Is there a realistic [00:23:10] chance that we are skipping Artemis and we're going to Mars um instead because it's the greater adventure 

[00:23:18] Markus: Is there a 

[00:23:18] Markus: realistic [00:23:20] chance that something like this could happen, that Artemis gets canceled?

[00:23:25] Giorgio Saccoccia: I don't have an answer for that uh is very but as you said uh [00:23:30] We are talking about political position and this is something that uh that change might change as um [00:23:40] soon uh political um political aspect implies again a confrontation between blocks and uh uh [00:23:50] we are not talking about the same blocks as 60 years ago There are other of course uh geological blocks but the interest on for the moon and the Kari [00:24:00] to go to the moon is in the end of of each of them or in the interest of each of them So uh what I can expect is that uh abandoning one [00:24:10] target by one of the side imply that the other one would take advantage of it and will set again food So my expectation is that no one will be [00:24:20] willing to do it because will be might be might be a mistake if I may make a comment more in general about [00:24:30] On the difference we respect to the past Um the interesting thing is that today and [00:24:40] despite all the up and down due to changes that we we are experiencing actually in in those days um the approach is international but the good for the bad [00:24:50] But the process international this is the main difference and there is nothing new under the sun I like to make reference to something that happened after the a [00:25:00] polo program when um the two blocks former uh Soviet Union and and the US [00:25:10] turned their attention to lower orbit and we added the development of the first uh orbital uh stations [00:25:20] Uh they did it initially on their own Um I'm talking about the salute uh program from uh from [00:25:30] uh SSR I'm talking about uh Skylab for example uh from us and then the further evolution mirror from um uh [00:25:40] from uh SSR et cetera Initially they remain as as two separate programs but soon [00:25:50] they realize that space is so visible and such an incredible instrument of uh diplomacy and this piece and will remain always [00:26:00] that it was offering the technology that they had developed in space to other was really [00:26:10] um an advantage So the this Cold War if you want to be was slowly transforming into um um um [00:26:20] A a diplomatic instruments uh sort of a um a way to attract [00:26:30] involvement initially of like-minded com countries For example the salute program of uh of um of [00:26:40] uh USSR initially was full fully fully uh Russians plus uh Russian In in in some cases also um [00:26:50] uh def defense related Some of the missions of salute were were of uh of uh of uh defense [00:27:00] nature defense or offensive in NA nature and this was uh a lot related to the fact that the the technology initially [00:27:10] so the the the the architecture of those stations was pri more to the point that the missions were [00:27:20] Um unique I mean it was the the session were launched they remain you could do your science or other things and then [00:27:30] that's it The the the work was done by by the machine Then the generation evolved and those um orbital [00:27:40] uh modules became open suitable for expansion suitable to attract um AANS cos Mons or [00:27:50] partners coming we living there and abandon the station other coming back and so on So those um [00:28:00] those um uh modules and station became an orbital um an orbital uh laboratory or an [00:28:10] orbital environment where they could not only conduct activities for their own but also offer them [00:28:20] Partners And again initially the partner were partner from politically likewise minded But then the idea was no let's use it to attract [00:28:30] uh uh other to our um technol technological [00:28:40] capability And for example salute initially but me also was later um Austin for example European uh AAN as we know [00:28:50] um or or or or um uh AANS from from other countries Same happen from the American side [00:29:00] And naturally all these developed very naturally towards the fantastic project of International Space Station where the [00:29:10] station was conceived as an international partnership not anymore Something coming from block and open to others To [00:29:20] me the value of of such a project is is incredible is enormous is really um technology [00:29:30] and and uh technological advancement becoming an instruments to to for peace for peace or at least for to maintain the status quo of [00:29:40] of um when things get difficult on earth you turn your eyes to something which is happening in space and try to um [00:29:50] to think how how goodwill was the moment when this uh this uh this uh project was conceived I will never forget [00:30:00] the moment when I was I was in Italy president agency at the time when of course the Ukraine war started despite [00:30:10] of the situation on earth and the very difficult uh relation of course that to develop uh between the different uh partners of the partners of the [00:30:20] Space station We still add the station fully operational and I always like to look at the the station as very unique place in [00:30:30] in the universe where from different countries can move from module to another One built different blocks on [00:30:40] earth uh US Japan uh Europe within 

[00:30:45] Markus: Hmm. 

[00:30:45] Giorgio Saccoccia: for example And uh and um they can move [00:30:50] without problem of of uh of uh borders continuously during the day while the overall setup is flying over the different [00:31:00] uh uh country countries on earth they speak uh different languages Uh languages are are develop and work to for a [00:31:10] common goal of survival Um science and and in particular messages on Earth Uh it is a fantastic and unique [00:31:20] uh reference and that's the value space and will always be a value space Also going back to the idea of of uh of uh of uh returning uh to the moon[00:31:30]

[00:31:32] Markus: This is a beautiful

[00:31:34] Markus: topic you're raising 

[00:31:35] Markus: here, 

[00:31:36] Markus: and as we're all,

[00:31:37] Markus: I 

[00:31:38] Markus: assume, as we're all looking [00:31:40] for ways to heal um our fractured nations and societies on this planet um is [00:31:50] space 

[00:31:52] Markus: truly 

[00:31:52] Markus: still a peace project I'm just trying to find out I'm just trying to find if space [00:32:00] like whatever comes after the ISS if Artemis maybe even if Morris missions are these the places where space [00:32:10] diplomacy Is leading the way 

[00:32:13] Markus: for 

[00:32:14] Markus: terrestrial fractured diplomacies where terrestrial diplomacy [00:32:20] can learn 

[00:32:21] Markus: or 

[00:32:21] Markus: can look up to

[00:32:22] Markus: the 

[00:32:23] Markus: space diplomacy where things are working Is this a naive 

[00:32:27] Markus: naive 

[00:32:28] Markus: wishful thinking on my [00:32:30] end Or how do you see that?

[00:32:33] Giorgio Saccoccia: Uh absolutely not It's not a naive um I mean space space is [00:32:40] something still today Space is something that distinctively attract the interest of people a child as well as uh uh [00:32:50] mature and experienced politicians for example I can tell you I I've seen this all my life It's a is a is a is a [00:33:00] fantastic door opener It It brings down the level of uh of uh of uh the entry the entry level of interest say [00:33:10] this is uh this is very um interesting and very uh appealing I would say uh for [00:33:20] as an instrument to to talk about good things to talk about peace to to to to use it as an example for for um [00:33:30] for a I mean 

[00:33:33] Markus: Collaboration. 

[00:33:33] Giorgio Saccoccia: evolution of of of of the way we live Uh we live on earth but of course [00:33:40] as every instrument every technology has every tool You can use it in both ways because you can you can use it well you can use it to to [00:33:50] do something good You can use the screwdriver as a to fix something or also to to make harm to someone the And of course [00:34:00] space can can also be a very powerful uh weapon of course Um and weapon is is as a negative [00:34:10] maybe meaning here But uh we we space for defense is a is again a very positive tools because I mean [00:34:20] uh the same technologies the same sensors that we have on satellite that we use to um make surveillance uh for emergencies uh situations [00:34:30] to intervene in case of disasters et cetera The same same sensors can be used also to to py for example uh to prepare an offensive uh [00:34:40] action or simply to prevent that an offense will be given to you Uh the scenario today for a possible [00:34:50] um uh attack or or offense moves from hurt observed by space To space [00:35:00] itself we talk nowadays a lot and we will it will be more and more uh the case about um uh [00:35:10] in orbit operations In orbit servicing I mean we want to um elongate the the life of our [00:35:20] uh space uh space assets We want to intervene If there are um need for repairs we need to um [00:35:30] move their orbit even the orbit of of of satellite that are not in condition to it anymore We want to deorbit them to avoid to [00:35:40] create um a want space debris I mean we need to intervene and have interaction among the space Assets Assets [00:35:50] As soon as you have Uh close operations between different assets You can also use this for for offense Of course [00:36:00] All all those aspects are part of what we are experiencing is the new aspect of space that so far we could uh we [00:36:10] could basically almost ignore so far I mean already least until a few years ago um there is not so much regulation [00:36:20] space is vast It's difficult to talk about a unique uh law or regulation to be applied worldwide Um so we need to [00:36:30] we need to set up also uh rules regulation and and uh and uh way of ways of looking at space are something [00:36:40] where the old humanity different countries uh not only in in collaborations but also in in uh independent um up [00:36:50] operate We did that on Earth over the history Now it's the moment to transfer this uh in another uh domain and [00:37:00] dimension Um but until we don't um we're not in position to um to set up a proper approach [00:37:10] a shared approach uh it'll be it'll be it'll be easy to to [00:37:20] to mix or it would be difficult to tell how um the user space activities will be uh down for [00:37:30] peaceful and and and good purposes or maybe for uh for um with the the idea to offense And there will be also maybe there could be misunderstanding [00:37:40] the mis are very dangerous or could be very dangerous Uh as history it tells us Uh uh when we talk [00:37:50] about different uh different uh geopolitical uh situations So it's a moment of evolution which is fantastic you can see It is not just technology Technology [00:38:00] has and will always have an important part but space is expanding towards um many other fields of of interest and and uh and um responsibility [00:38:10] that uh we have to shape up in the new space uh space to has to uh a lot of [00:38:20] attention to this

[00:38:22] Markus: And Giorgio is the future of space exploration. Is,

[00:38:27] Markus: is this a tandem between the [00:38:30] private sector and the national sector the nation states the governments 

[00:38:37] Markus: the 

[00:38:37] Markus: agencies [00:38:40] or is it private only because there is perhaps I don't know

[00:38:44] Markus: different incentive. Also lots of funding,

[00:38:49] Markus: uh, 

[00:38:49] Markus: a lot [00:38:50] more risk taking or is it a tandem in the future when it comes to the big missions big missions meaning [00:39:00] going to Mars setting up a permanent habitat on the moon

[00:39:04] Markus: going to Venus?

[00:39:05] Markus: What 

[00:39:06] Markus: do you think?

[00:39:07] Giorgio Saccoccia: Uh I'm I'm absolutely convinced that uh [00:39:10] um space already and will remain uh for a long long time still [00:39:20] uh a mix of uh of uh of uh and institutional endeavors This this [00:39:30] once again history teaches us from from other fields If you think today e even for commercial uh uh commercial uh uh [00:39:40] flights I mean uh Airplanes It is true that is 

[00:39:44] Markus: Hmm. 

[00:39:44] Giorgio Saccoccia: privately driven but uh there is a lot which is still uh [00:39:50] um supported by government uh regulations uh is uh we will experience maybe a shift of of um of [00:40:00] responsibilities a shift of the initiatives But what we see today is that institutions agencies government are supporting a lot flourishing of [00:40:10] of the private sector Mm-hmm Because this of course has a um generating um economy wealth uh is an incredible opportunity [00:40:20] But at the same time we are very cautious in controlling that this will not happen in a wild uh way to to avoid what I was mentioning before of course Because still [00:40:30] it's a it's a it is a completely green uh 

[00:40:32] Markus: Hmm. 

[00:40:34] Giorgio Saccoccia: Um So certainly at tandem at ton at tandem with with with [00:40:40] with with an evolving shape and uh I'm sure will remain uh will remain for a for a long uh long long 

[00:40:46] Markus: Mm, 

[00:40:47] Giorgio Saccoccia: Mm-hmm I hardly believe that we will [00:40:50] experience uh in um before they got situation where only a space will only be pri the private

[00:40:57] Markus: mm-hmm. Georgia, I'd like [00:41:00] to go to a topic that,

[00:41:02] Markus: um, 

[00:41:02] Markus: forms the basis of your incredible career and 

[00:41:06] Markus: that is propulsion technology engineering [00:41:10] in propulsion technologies Going into space is long and tedious endeavor especially going from A to B[00:41:20]

[00:41:20] Markus: Uh that sounds banal but it's not um to go to different places I mean like even going to Mars is a month long endeavor [00:41:30] one direction and I'm not even talking about other celestial bodies. So I'm just wondering in 

[00:41:37] Markus: how

[00:41:37] Markus: far propulsion technology is holding [00:41:40] something essentially new for us,

[00:41:42] Markus: um at some point in the future that will help us shorten that travel time Or [00:41:50] I'd love to learn a lot more about propulsion technology from where it comes from and where we are headed to maybe find out a little bit what is being [00:42:00] developed at the moment

[00:42:03] Giorgio Saccoccia: Okay Well with pleasure uh propulsion is is a fascinating field because it's it's very simple [00:42:10] It's very elementary The concept of provision space provision in particular because it sim I mean it all goes down to a [00:42:20] certain mass of um or propellant at a certain speed The higher the speed or the higher the mass higher is the the the [00:42:30] change of uh of motion that you can apply to your uh spacecraft or to a rocket that is leaving from Earth et cetera Uh is simple As I said [00:42:40] The problem is that you need a way to accelerate this propel and you need the propellant itself which is heavy and mass [00:42:50] to carry with you is the opposite of what you want to do for uh in space activities cause mass means cost monthly Uh it means even [00:43:00] not being covered to carry out a mission because your your um satellite will be or your will be 12 So the only in [00:43:10] improvisation since the conception of uh the the first concept of Meant to um [00:43:20] increase this uh this um of mass and and uh uh and velocity or at least to act to to reduce mass [00:43:30] or to increase velocity there are a lot of uh technologies that um are there to um [00:43:40] to uh to propel our spacecraft or our uh rockets that can be adopted and used [00:43:50] depending on the application Um I say this okay for Rocket for Rocket certain you need uh trust You need uh [00:44:00] you need uh um a lot of trust in short term to be able to to to leave hurt and uh and uh hurt um gravity [00:44:10] Uh so what to experience today um I mean the the Prop the rocket propulsion for for rockets is I mean is [00:44:20] quite advanced the main effort today is more intended to reduce costs to make sure that you can have uh uh large [00:44:30] production of uh of uh rockets because uh rock rockets are are uh the I would say the first uh [00:44:40] space item where you are interested in in uh in uh economy scale it's very interesting I really adore to see for example the evolution of [00:44:50] the you know the engines develop by SpaceX

[00:44:54] Markus: That's

[00:44:55] Giorgio Saccoccia: third generation is is is a marble of [00:45:00] simplification uh which means cost cost reduction That's that's uh of course still keeping as much as possible Um uh [00:45:10] reliability On the other end they have uh they are also investing in uh in uh in uh the use of uh several engine on the same rocket in such a way that you have an [00:45:20] interest in uh uh redundance on on on the way you operate Your your your mis But again the technology is always the same as a concept is when you move to [00:45:30] to space to satellites because there moving from A to B in space the concept is is again the same but you can do it in [00:45:40] in different ways In different ways And with different Es you can again be interested in having a quick transfer uh from one orbit to [00:45:50] another one from one Orbital position to another one Um and maybe you can afford to waste a bit more [00:46:00] prevalent than using other technologies or you can uh afford to um initiate at least to [00:46:10] move slow more slowly or slower than than using uh other type of pro propulsion But you will save enormous amount of propel until you will ate your [00:46:20] mission or you will reach destination that will cluster propulsion will not be possible This case for example of electric propulsion which is a field where I've been exposed [00:46:30] lot in particular actually from the very beginning of my of my career and uh actually Washington is a fascinating field because [00:46:40] the difference with classical is that uh the energy That you uh use to accelerate your propellant [00:46:50] is not intrinsically um intrinsically um embedded in your uh in the chemical bonding of the [00:47:00] propellant to use but you take it from outside from an electrical uh power source Um[00:47:10]

[00:47:10] Markus: Can you give us

[00:47:10] Markus: an example 

[00:47:11] Giorgio Saccoccia: how

[00:47:12] Markus: electrical propulsion works?

[00:47:13] Giorgio Saccoccia: Yeah For example let me I I take one type of technology the so-called [00:47:20] grid Dion engines Uh but this applies also to other technologies Basically what you do uh you you use as a [00:47:30] propellant contrary to the classical hypergolic uh or very very highly reactive uh propellant that are used for a chemical profession You use uh um a [00:47:40] noble gas Gon for example uh why use those gases Because uh those gases have as a property the capability to [00:47:50] easily Ionize means that uh you can um the electrons from the ions in the nucleus [00:48:00] and why you want to do this because then the ions will have a a charge a positive charge and with certain devices in front of those uh [00:48:10] that point plasma is a co coexistence of ions and and and electrons But separate and not and not If you put in [00:48:20] front of those uh plasma uh and a negative charge enough enough uh enough to to voltage [00:48:30] Enough intense um you can accelerate these and make them leaving the engine leaving the satellite [00:48:40] and create this ous times velocity that you're looking for Now what is interesting electrical option is that contrary to the classic production the [00:48:50] velocity incredibly higher than the chemical production system can be 2 3 order of magnitude magnitude higher [00:49:00] means that you can obtain the same change of velocity by reaction on your satellite with [00:49:10] much less propellant The classical I mean the the main difference that the thrust you apply is [00:49:20] typically much lower I mean you can not use electric version to To um to take off a rocket from hurt because you there you need [00:49:30] tons of of of uh of trust you can gently keep on pushing [00:49:40] your satellite for days months And this means that your your satellite will keep on accelerating slowly initially [00:49:50] but then more and more eventually you can reach velocities that are much higher than the one you you you will with a classical big [00:50:00] push with chemical progression But

[00:50:02] Markus: So that would be a little comparable, although a completely different technology. But the one with the solar [00:50:10] sails that's,

[00:50:11] Markus: um, 

[00:50:11] Markus: being propelled through lasers 

[00:50:13] Giorgio Saccoccia: solar cells is the is is even another concept because for solar cells the is [00:50:20] applied out from outside Is the is the light pressure is pushing uh uh yeah indeed the sale or electric sail So you don't have [00:50:30] propellant on

[00:50:30] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:31] Giorgio Saccoccia: less concept uh to Russian still as propellant but it uses much less less which means that there will be missions that [00:50:40] we can watch and you cannot do because you don't have enough capacity and your tanks in your uh in your uh mass that becomes feasible A classical example [00:50:50] is uh uh emission to the plant Mercury but without electro wouldn't would've not been feasible Uh with [00:51:00] onboard ion engines uh and a certain number of flybys has become feasible in terms of payload that has been brought [00:51:10] Another example I like to use because we have been talking about the moon and is very close to my heart is uh smart One mission of Visa Smart Plan was a technology demonstrator [00:51:20] demonstrator of satellite which was launched in 2003 It was the first European mission where we have used electrical passion [00:51:30] for design to do the orbit transfer from uh her to moon from Ermine from I mean from the Gest stationary transfer orbit [00:51:40] Smart one was a small satellite about um a cube or one meter of a of a base um 300 [00:51:50] kilograms if I remember was something like that So a really small satellite main two To do technology demonstration ion and some uh science [00:52:00] observation around the moon uh was a a cheap mission we we could not we didn't want to afford a dedicated launch [00:52:10] So it was launched on IM five as a not even secondary but third payload There were three satellites on that uh on that mission The third one was smart [00:52:20] one The first two satellites were telecom satellites So the orbit where smart one was delivered was was the one of the main payloads which [00:52:30] was the jail transfer orbit The worst orbit you can imagine if you want to go to the moon you you prefer to start with different uh type of orbit [00:52:40] So from there to the moon smartphone used electric compassion whole effect thruster to perform [00:52:50] as low transfer That lasted uh almost 20 year Eventually getting around the moon and entering an [00:53:00] moon uh a moon orbit and conducting for one and a half year science there to do all this It consumed f called well [00:53:10] I think 65 all propellant Hmm

[00:53:16] Giorgio Saccoccia: I made a I made I made a a [00:53:20] funny say calculation because of course all this was done doing orbital revolution et cetera made a a funny calculation because of course it's not uh the the type of [00:53:30] calculation you want to do but I evaluated it Um it was um as much one was consuming something like uh one [00:53:40] liter of propellant per Two millions of kilometers I think would've been a perfect perfect uh uh

[00:53:47] Markus: Sustainability.

[00:53:49] Giorgio Saccoccia: [00:53:50] Yeah.

[00:53:50] Giorgio Saccoccia: just to say that uh uh it is a completely different way to look at uh future missions Imagine that on ation you're gonna have [00:54:00] a I dunno uh orbital tag uh that might might take a main page and bring it to Mars and [00:54:10] coming back to get another one You can reshape the way you you space exploration uh with the use of such a technology for sure is [00:54:20] already extremely successful for the application to commercial uh telecom mission et cetera Because it has completely uh it has allowed a [00:54:30] complete redesign of the architecture of those satellites in terms of massive propellant that uh those satellite after embark [00:54:40] Volume of the tank of this prevalent as well You can imagine I mean you don't need just give an idea Before ION was introduced a large commercial [00:54:50] uh GEs stationary satellite a big beast in the order of five tons at launch half of it was prevalent something [00:55:00] that you were just wasting using electro and you could reduce this this amount to I dunno five 600 kilograms So saving [00:55:10] up to two tons of of uh not uh uh mass That could [00:55:20] be translating into different uh things like more transponders So making more economically uh viable and investment to [00:55:30] develop a satellite like this or embarking more propellant to extend the life beyond certain Duration So continues to [00:55:40] pro to to give revenues to the the users uh sorry the to the investors and and and and service to the users or simply doing a [00:55:50] smaller satellite and uh making use of a smaller rockets today maybe this is less attractive [00:56:00] than in the past but when you back 10 or 15 years ago using a smaller rocket had as an impact uh [00:56:10] uh a much lower initial investment Uh so any a a a quicker and faster return on investment for for the [00:56:20] investors So the adoption of ION was having this type of of um of implications

[00:56:29] Markus: So

[00:56:29] Markus: I [00:56:30] could 

[00:56:30] Markus: think from my very

[00:56:31] Markus: lay, uh, 

[00:56:32] Markus: perspective here I could think of a Combined solution for interplanetary missions So whenever you need [00:56:40] to overcome 

[00:56:41] Markus: gravity 

[00:56:42] Markus: you will need chemical So if you want to leave a planet if you want to land on a planet you will need [00:56:50] chemical 

[00:56:50] Markus: But 

[00:56:51] Markus: for the transfer in between And for the correction maneuvers this would be 

[00:56:55] Markus: electrical 

[00:56:57] Markus: Does is there anything that [00:57:00] speaks for chemical 

[00:57:01] Markus: during 

[00:57:02] Markus: transfer or would that combination I just I just sketched out Make 

[00:57:07] Giorgio Saccoccia: No no You you are perfectly right Is uh is exactly the [00:57:10] type of scenario that we're today Um the only that I mean not not the only but certainly something which will be [00:57:20] very uh in favor of of seal of chemical for the transfer It depends on from where to where you want to go because um [00:57:30] For certain uh distances the chemical transfer would be still quicker And uh uh in particular if you're talking about human uh human [00:57:40] emissions you want to reduce the time of transfer for the for the astronauts So it really depends from where uh to where you want to go on the energy you can embark because of [00:57:50] course you can increase the trust of electric but you need more more more power more energy So we are limited today by the solar panels but we be one day with [00:58:00] nuclear pro nuclear um energy on board We can afford bigger electric engine So there will be evolution in this sense but certainly uh [00:58:10] thrust which is uh the characteristic of ion is still um is still uh on their side

[00:58:18] Markus: Is this still, is this [00:58:20] already being looked into when it comes to our next big

[00:58:24] Markus: leap? I 

[00:58:24] Markus: mean 

[00:58:24] Markus: like for the moon I think I dunno, you, I would love to hear what makes [00:58:30] from your end what makes sense how to go to the moon but then 

[00:58:33] Markus: maybe

[00:58:34] Markus: when we go to Mars uh, I think to the moon it's just a three days But to Mars [00:58:40] it's a couple of months So

[00:58:42] Markus: Is it being looked into as to use, or if it makes sense to use electrical over [00:58:50] chemical

[00:58:50] Markus: or 

[00:58:50] Markus: where 

[00:58:50] Markus: where do we stand here 

[00:58:51] Giorgio Saccoccia: Uh there are of studies There have been also in the past plenty of studies on different architectures including to the moon Even if it is so [00:59:00] so close say for sure the use if you have ocean for car omission I mean you you don't just go a place with a U one [00:59:10] because going back to our discussion uh before uh the idea is uh to go there to stay So you will need supply you will need uh you will need infrastructure We'll need many things that you [00:59:20] still will have to bring from earth or from wherever you will be living for the next step So for those things you the user electric of action [00:59:30] will be will be essential will be absolutely a must Items uh infrastructure [00:59:40] modules uh cargo might be sent in advance giving enough time to collect your passion to reach the destination And then when everything is radio will be [00:59:50] assembled robotically or by other um exploratory human emissions you will send possibly as fast as possible your uh your uh [01:00:00] humans to utilize those um those um those this infrastructure and those uh supplies So yes um usual when we [01:00:10] talk about space rationalization and and um and planning will be will be really the uh the winning uh the [01:00:20] winning element Mm-hmm

[01:00:23] Markus: A very mundane question to you. You are from Italy and wherever I go. [01:00:30] Um,

[01:00:30] Markus: when it comes to space topics whenever I engage with ISA And other places 

[01:00:37] Markus: Italians 

[01:00:37] Markus: are everywhere Is Italy [01:00:40] a superpower in space 

[01:00:43] Giorgio Saccoccia: Italy has is a is a country with a very long tradition in space and uh has been one of the [01:00:50] first uh countries to send the satellite into space is high uh has been always high in the agenda also in [01:01:00] the political agenda Visible very visible So there is also an element of pride uh linked to that in the field I mean it is one of the few countries um in the [01:01:10] world There are more and more of course but uh one of the few countries in Europe and the world that is dealing with all the aspect of space activities all the type of applications [01:01:20] uh from from to word observation telecom And this is certainly a A plus an [01:01:30] advantage because it gives the opportunity to really look at all the the opportunity and also to to cross-fertilization If you take for example the the subject of today's discussion we are [01:01:40] having uh exploration Italy has a very privileged uh there because since uh the beginning of uh the European uh involvement in exploration Italy [01:01:50] as a dual uh corridor say is working of course very actively uh with through the different Visa programs But it has also um [01:02:00] conducts also um development and and projects in uh in bilateral with uh nationally with other with other countries [01:02:10] in particular us So far Uh what I really like of the exploration exposure of Italy is that uh it has been a very [01:02:20] mm uh Very good case where institutional investment coming from uh from the government and uh deployed through EA or [01:02:30] nationally have generated a capability that has a nucleated eventually also um commercial uh [01:02:40] uh commercial uh uh capacity Say uh to give an example uh you take um the investment down for [01:02:50] the uh to develop the pressurized module first of uh space lab So application shuttle then the [01:03:00] space station space station Uh there we have had a contribution to the European modules called but also [01:03:10] uh pressurized modules that have been developed directly by by the Italian Space Agency and offer to the partners of the space stations [01:03:20] The the expertise the competence developed by Italian industry for that has allowed them by any government in in [01:03:30] in um has allowed the Italian industry to continues to offer similar modules So in any case uh [01:03:40] supply modules developed on the base of this um of this um competence to American partners commercial partners [01:03:50] And for example in this way the Cignas uh supply mm-hmm Uh model has been uh has been developed with a very strong uh um [01:04:00] contribution from Italian industry This concept for the space station for lower orbit being transferred also to to [01:04:10] the moon in a way because we have a similar situation there the lunar gateway Italy Italy industry is contributing uh significantly high up [01:04:20] uh European module At the same time they are um working on direct contribution to to [01:04:30] to to the gateway uh I'm aware of the fact I mean it was initiated when I was there but they're continuing Um [01:04:40] That there are also discussion on going to contribute uh nationally uh to first element on the surface of the moon uh first [01:04:50] multipurpose uh elements as well as of course working still with uh um in parallel with these on on concept like uh the [01:05:00] the European donor land et cetera All this again will generate and and will reinforce the capacity of uh Italian industry to to [01:05:10] operate on their own commercially And I think this is exactly the the way I see and I see more and more for the future the syner synergetic uh way of [01:05:20] operating of institutions and and uh private uh private sector to really uh develop uh the future space economy [01:05:30]

[01:05:30] Markus: With, 

[01:05:30] Markus: um, 

[01:05:31] Markus: Italy being a very strong player in a community,

[01:05:34] Markus: um, 

[01:05:34] Markus: being the European Union where do you see the European Union in the [01:05:40] international 

[01:05:41] Markus: game 

[01:05:42] Markus: when it comes to making humans and interplanetary 

[01:05:47] Markus: species 

[01:05:49] Markus: um [01:05:50] making baby steps at the moment getting our hardware ready Where do we stand as

[01:05:55] Markus: uh, as, as Europeans, what's our niche and what are our [01:06:00] strengths and weaknesses?

[01:06:02] Giorgio Saccoccia: Well uh um European Union Ads at European level [01:06:10] the the political uh element which is necessary um We have been already extremely successful through [01:06:20] European Union in developing projects like uh programs like uh like like uh uh like Kileo Uh and we have [01:06:30] been covered to do this thanks to a political decision as European has eventually set the scene [01:06:40] to develop uh fantastic uh fantastic machines that are used for the benefit of all European citizens is a has [01:06:50] this essential role of enabling technically this uh this this vision this dream European industry has [01:07:00] played this role of course to put it into into act I think when Europe wants to Operate together with a clear vision [01:07:10] We are very very successful and we can be very successful I don't see why we shouldn't be Also in the future are new ideas uh new project in the making uh are [01:07:20] square for uh communication secure communication Others might come in the future Um we are a [01:07:30] continent continent with a lot of people with tradition and with a with a and a natural uh capacity for innovation There we have no uh reason and [01:07:40] no no constraints to to continue to leverage on that for the future I'm profoundly convinced 

[01:07:47] Markus: Mm-hmm. 

[01:07:48] Giorgio Saccoccia: just a question of willingness and [01:07:50] and understanding also what is important and and where the priority has for uh for us for the future

[01:07:58] Markus: If we take, um,[01:08:00]

[01:08:00] Markus: a look into the future 2040 

[01:08:03] Markus: the 

[01:08:03] Markus: next generation of space leaders what is the one skill or area of [01:08:10] expertise we might be

[01:08:12] Markus: overlooking at the moment and which are essential 

[01:08:16] Markus: for 

[01:08:16] Markus: next 

[01:08:18] Markus: generations of space [01:08:20] leaders 

[01:08:20] Giorgio Saccoccia: Always the same Curiosity and and passion I mean this is the driver for uh the next steps[01:08:30]

[01:08:30] Markus: Giorgio, if the call came, would you board a space ship spacecraft and go to places like the

[01:08:38] Markus: Moon 

[01:08:38] Markus: or[01:08:40]

[01:08:40] Giorgio Saccoccia: this is of course part of my my child dream and uh uh we remain children with our with our dreams for all our lives So why not [01:08:50] exclude it

[01:08:53] Markus: We have a fun,

[01:08:54] Markus: um, 

[01:08:54] Markus: tradition here in the space uh Cafe podcast 

[01:08:58] Markus: Um 

[01:08:58] Markus: I initiated a playlist on [01:09:00] Spotify It's called the Playlist for the Aspiring Space Traveler And I ask each guest to contribute one of their 

[01:09:09] Markus: favorite 

[01:09:09] Markus: [01:09:10] musical pieces 

[01:09:11] Markus: which 

[01:09:11] Markus: they would not want to miss

[01:09:14] Markus: on their personal trip to the planets So just imagine you're going to Mars you're going [01:09:20] to Venus and things get really boring What's the one piece of music you would not want to miss 

[01:09:27] Giorgio Saccoccia: Well I I mean I'm uh [01:09:30] I'm an old guy I am a fan of course of the music from the from the seventies et cetera I I like groups like Pink Floyd et cetera I think when [01:09:40] when I like when I think also in the past when I think about myself floating in the I In the space in [01:09:50] a in a mission uh the mu the type of music open Floyd is ideal to to set the background in my opinion So yes I would use uh [01:10:00] I always choose something from um from the dark side of the moon 

[01:10:06] Markus: Which 

[01:10:06] Markus: one

[01:10:07] Markus: one, should I put on the playlist?

[01:10:09] Giorgio Saccoccia: [01:10:10] Uh maybe the the if I remember what the title of uh of the the final one is uh is [01:10:20] uh eclipse of the Moon something like this Now I don't remember the titles but that would be very nice But relax soon 

[01:10:28] Markus: You know, I'll, I'll look it up and I'll take [01:10:30] the last piece

[01:10:30] Markus: from the 

[01:10:31] Markus: the album. Okay. I. Last question Um Giorgio um 

[01:10:38] Markus: as 

[01:10:38] Markus: an 

[01:10:38] Markus: Italian you [01:10:40] being an Italian you 

[01:10:42] Markus: are 

[01:10:42] Markus: leading 

[01:10:43] Markus: Not 

[01:10:43] Markus: only 

[01:10:44] Markus: many 

[01:10:45] Markus: aspects in the space industry but also in coffee culture as an Italian [01:10:50]

[01:10:50] Markus: Um 

[01:10:50] Markus: this place here is the Space Cafe Podcast now and then you go to coffee places uh to energize yourself to have a [01:11:00] strong shot of coffee to energize your body I challenge you now to share 

[01:11:05] Markus: an 

[01:11:06] Markus: espresso a strong shot of coffee for

[01:11:08] Markus: the mind [01:11:10] with me and the audience. What's the one shot of inspiration you would like to share?

[01:11:17] Giorgio Saccoccia: Well I'm a I'm I'm a [01:11:20] personal compromises When there are needed this will Why I always have a I ask for a macchiato and I think um [01:11:30] you don't I You don't have to have strong position you have to always open to two different uh flavors of uh [01:11:40] that's why I think macchiato is a good combination for me because coffee can be very bitter in some other case too Sweet so it smooth down and [01:11:50] makes uh makes uh makes the beverage more uh more appealing to me And this is I think it is [01:12:00] what happened Uh whatever I do in a way I'm always open to to influence that would could modify the the sharp corners [01:12:10] position we have So I will go for that

[01:12:13] Markus: Wonderful. Thank you so much for taking the time.

[01:12:18] Giorgio Saccoccia: It was really my [01:12:20] pleasure

[01:12:26] Markus: And that brings us to the [01:12:30] end of another show with. The fantastic Giorgio Sacha, thank you so much for taking the time and for sharing your wisdom. Um, by [01:12:40] the way, I picked the last tune. I looked it up, I had to look it up. And the last tune on that Pink Floyd album is Eclipse. So, so be it. It's already on the [01:12:50] playlist, by the way.

[01:12:50] Markus: My friends, if you, have you ever checked out that playlist? It's on Spotify. If you look for. The playlist, uh, let me just check [01:13:00] the, the exact title. Hold on a second. So it's called, hold on. Um, it's [01:13:10] called the Aspiring Astronauts Playlist. I kept labeling it completely wrong all the time. [01:13:20] So here is the official title.

[01:13:22] Markus: It's the Aspiring Astronauts Playlist. And um, currently we have, I. Almost a hundred [01:13:30] tunes on it, and you should check it out. Perhaps if you go into space, if you're traveling to Mars or the Moon or wherever, this may be [01:13:40] the place that other guests from the Space Cafe Podcast would enjoy on their galactic ride.

[01:13:48] Markus: Yeah. So [01:13:50] if you find. What we're doing here is interesting. Consider sharing it with a friend. Consider sharing it with your kids because they're the [01:14:00] next generation of space leaders and perhaps they're taking something out of it, or you are just talking or sharing it. Whatever you feel [01:14:10] like is interesting from that show with someone you like and perhaps leave us a rating or a review on some of those platforms out there.[01:14:20]

[01:14:20] Markus: So. Other than that, there's nothing more to say. Thank you so much for your valuable time, my friends. This is highly appreciated from the [01:14:30] bottom of my heart and I'm looking forward to seeing you in two weeks from now. Bye-bye.