Who Needs Legs in Space? The Incredible Journey of John McFall

John McFall — surgeon, Paralympic medalist, father of three, and ESA parastronaut selectee — joins Markus to explore how human spaceflight changes when we design for ability, not assumptions. From winter survival in the Pyrenees to EVA realities and cosmic radiation, John shares what it takes to open space to everyone.

Cosmic Timeline

[00:00:00] Squeezing life’s juice — John’s credo

[00:03:00] Coffee breaks as medalist, surgeon, astronaut

[00:06:00] Accident at 19 → sport, surgery, ESA call

[00:09:00] Do we need legs in space?

[00:12:20] Winter survival in Pyrenees snow caves

[00:15:00] Basic training: survival, centrifuge, classrooms

[00:24:00] Rethinking excellence — Apollo vs today

[00:30:00] Why EVAs are brutally physical

[00:33:00] Floating “prisons” & Skylab lessons

[00:36:00] Pressure of being ESA’s first parastronaut

[00:40:00] Designing space for adaptive bodies

[00:44:00] ESA, NASA, and Europe’s timing

[00:46:00] Starship iteration vs ESA caution

[00:50:00] Radiation: cosmic rays, flares, Vigil mission

[00:54:00] Acute vs chronic radiation risks

[01:00:00] Espresso for the mind: “Go the extra mile”

[01:02:00] Closing: inclusivity as space’s next leap

Key Discussion Points

• Training, no exceptions. From snow caves in the Pyrenees to centrifuge drills, John meets the same standards as his peers.
• Rethinking excellence. Apollo’s muscle-bound explorers vs. today’s reality of EVA suits, radiation risks, and teamwork.
• Radiation: the big wall. Acute vs. chronic effects, why long-term missions demand breakthroughs, and ESA’s Vigil solar-weather mission.
• Design from scratch. Building adaptive spacecraft and systems that work for every kind of astronaut.
• Inspiration for kids. Why seeing John in a flight suit could empower the next generation of dreamers.

Music for the Journey

• John’s pick for our Spotify playlist This Playlist for the Aspiring Space Traveler:
  A live 16-minute version of Status Quo’s “4500 Times” (Milton Keynes, 1979).

Espresso for the Mind

“Always go the extra mile. Life will reward you.”
Words from John’s parents after his accident — a mantra he carries into every challenge.

Links to Explore

• ESA Parastronaut Initiative 
• ESA Astronaut Training overview 
• ESA Vigil Space Weather Mission 
• ESA News on John McFall’s selection

You can find us on Spotify and Apple Podcast!

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Transcript

SCP_139_John_McFall

[00:00:00] John: I wanna pop my clogs at the end of my life knowing that I've squeezed most of the juice, 

[00:00:04] Markus: out of it.

[00:00:05] John: out of life, you know, and, feel fulfilled and rewarded, um, and [00:00:10] satisfied that I've put the effort in, uh, because I know, so well that you get outta life what you put in. 

[00:00:16] Markus: Hello everyone, and this is the Space [00:00:20] Cafe Podcast. And I'm Markus. So this is the story of John McFall, a well super athlete, [00:00:30] a person who at the age of 19 lost. His lower leg and a person who decided to become an astronaut. [00:00:40] How cool is that? It's well, um, my world is getting smaller and smaller listening to something like this, and.

[00:00:48] Markus: Trying to wrap my head around such a [00:00:50] career. Well, in fact, let's, uh, backtrack a little. Um, John McFall took part in a pretty fascinating experiment. The Euro, uh, uh, European Space Agency conducted actually as [00:01:00] the only space agency in the world who has ever attempted to do something like this. So, Issa has been [00:01:10] conducting an experiment that's all about finding out.

[00:01:14] Markus: As to how physical disabilities change or [00:01:20] contribute or harm or benefit, um, uh, space exploration. And, um, John McFall, um, this fascinating guy is at the center of the attention of all of [00:01:30] this. And, um, he was put, uh, through the ringer of astronaut, um, training and this is the story. So in fact, I [00:01:40] invited him, um, to the show.

[00:01:41] Markus: Of course, I mean, like, who wouldn't want to talk to John McFall? Um, about such an interesting story as such, an interesting journey to find out [00:01:50] as to how the experiment went. And by the way, all in all, I find the overall, um, uh. I find the overall idea of such a project [00:02:00] very, very inspiring because it's not just about John being able to go into space at some point.

[00:02:08] Markus: It's all about [00:02:10] opening up space to everyone because maybe we should ask a pretty uncomfortable question we haven't [00:02:20] asked so far. And that question is in zero or. Almost zero gravity. Who needs a leg? [00:02:30] I know. I know. It sounds kinda inappropriate or inappropriate, but Well, it's an obvious question. Do we really need legs in [00:02:40] space when we're floating around?

[00:02:42] Markus: So, welcome John McFaul to the Space Cafe Podcast. Thank you so much, John, for taking the time. This is going to be [00:02:50] fun. Let's go.

[00:02:52] Markus: I was wondering if you are at a hospital, I'm wondering a coffee break

[00:02:59] John: journey.

[00:02:59] Markus: and [00:03:00] you, where you meet your colleagues, how does that feel like to you? I mean, like, are you like where you surgeon who gets [00:03:10] medals at Paralympic events and then wants to become an astronaut? How, how is, how is a typical coffee break for you?

[00:03:16] John: I, I think, 'cause [00:03:20] I, if I don't know people that I'm on a coffee break with, I tend to keep very much, keep myself to myself.

[00:03:24] Markus: Okay.

[00:03:25] John: kind of sit quietly, have my coffee and go about my business. Yeah. [00:03:30] Sometimes I, with colleagues who know me and they know my backstory, uh, and stuff and, uh, yeah, we talk about some, some funny stuff, but I have to say, within the world of, [00:03:40] of medicine, um, a lot of medics are achievers, right?

[00:03:43] John: They're, um, they've also achieved a huge amount of great stuff, uh, in their lives. But yeah, [00:03:50] my situation is fairly unique. You know, my background firstly being an amputee, uh, as well, and being a surgeon and having that background in sport [00:04:00] was probably already enough to talk about it in a coffee break.

[00:04:03] Markus: And you're a father, so I mean, like, um, 24 [00:04:10] hours are pretty much, um, taken.

[00:04:12] John: Yeah, absolutely. And certainly I remember those days, well, a few years back when my kids were, were very young, you [00:04:20] know, they're, they're a bit older now, they're 12, 11 and, and eight now. But, you know, when they're in those small years, I'm going through my training years as a surgeon as well, [00:04:30] which are incredibly demanding, both academically and also from a time point of view.

[00:04:34] John: There were some, some, some tough days. Very much a blur. You know, you you're just lurching [00:04:40] from one day to the next, just, uh, trying to keep, keep the plate spinning.

[00:04:44] Markus: Wow. But it seems like you, you, always craving for [00:04:50] something to engage with, to do so, not like, um, a happy idler

[00:04:57] John: Absolutely. Yeah. You're, you're, you're very [00:05:00] right, very observant. Uh, I think I probably make life difficult for myself, but I probably do that intentionally. Because, um, [00:05:10] you know, I wanna pop my clogs at the end of my life knowing that I've squeezed most of the juice, uh, out of,

[00:05:17] Markus: out of it.

[00:05:18] John: out of life, you know, and, [00:05:20] and feel fulfilled and rewarded, um, and satisfied that I've put the effort in, uh, because I know, you know, I, I know [00:05:30] so well that you get outta life what you put in.

[00:05:33] John: And I like that. I like that feeling. Uh, it's just, I find it very rewarding. Um, yeah, [00:05:40] I, mind working hard.

[00:05:44] Markus: Completely understand. Uh, I love that. Love that. 'cause what you get back is [00:05:50] so much powerful. Um, yeah. So I completely understand. Um, John, let's, let's get like [00:06:00] this out of the way. You lost a leg, um, during a motorcycle accident or because of a motorcycle accident at age 19, right. That [00:06:10] was.

[00:06:10] John: Yeah.

[00:06:11] Markus: Um, and then you became a professional athlete. Then you became a professional surgeon, [00:06:20] then you decided to become an astronaut. So this in a nutshell, um, I'm just wondering why [00:06:30] Isa Issa making such a big thing out of somebody a lower limb [00:06:40] wanting to become an astronaut, meaning who needs a leg in space?

[00:06:46] John: I think what Issa [00:06:50] doing is really related to, I think, um, what I think are quite core values to, to us as Europeans, really. And that is that. [00:07:00] Um, if, people are good enough, everyone should have equal opportunity to do, uh, do the same, uh, as [00:07:10] others. And I think, um, Issa recognized that talented people come from [00:07:20] such a wide variety of, uh, of backgrounds and different parts of society that, you know, why should a physical disability preclude you [00:07:30] from doing the job as an astronaut?

[00:07:32] John: If you are, you know, cognitively competent, psychologically competent, uh, uh, healthy, uh, and fit, you know, [00:07:40] why, why should that stand in the way? Should we, should it stand in the way? Because that's just the way it's always been. And I think what I [00:07:50] saw when I found out about this, you know, I thought what Issa were doing was quite.

[00:07:56] John: and brave to ask this question. And you might think, yeah, it's a [00:08:00] bit tokenistic as it is. Just all this about diversity and equality and inclusivity. But actually it down. What [00:08:10] are we, what are we doing? We are demonstrating that it doesn't matter where you, where you come from, um, let's challenge the preconceptions and the, the [00:08:20] norms cha change the narrative about what we expect or the, the, the professional roles in which we expect to see, uh, people with disabilities working.

[00:08:28] John: [00:08:30] Um, and I think is quite a prominent, [00:08:40] I would say, quite a prominent attitude in Europe.

[00:08:43] Markus: Absolutely.

[00:08:47] John: So.

[00:08:49] Markus: [00:08:50] maybe, maybe the question is not be. Maybe I'm exaggerating now, but it shouldn't be about inclusivity. It should [00:09:00] be about realizing that perhaps we are missing something as a society that, um, we're ex excluding [00:09:10] potential that should not be excluded because again, why we need a limb, a lower limb in space, in zero [00:09:20] gravity with a perfectly capable mind and a capable body attached to it. So maybe our mindsets need to be refocused. So it [00:09:30] seems like almost that that place that is most difficult to get to is the most inviting one [00:09:40] for all walks of life, for all limbs or missing limbs or whatnot, it's open for a [00:09:50] restart of that discussion. I dunno, does that make sense?

[00:09:53] John: mean the microgravity environment? The, the space

[00:09:56] Markus: Yes. Yes.

[00:09:57] John: I mean, so many people have said [00:10:00] that, um, uh, e everybody who goes and lives and works in microgravity is disabled by their environment. Humans are not designed to live and [00:10:10] work in, uh,

[00:10:10] Markus: Yeah.

[00:10:11] John: microgravity. So there is, adaptation on every level for every individual, whether you are missing limbs or, or not.[00:10:20]

[00:10:22] John: And I think what we've been able to do is, we've learned so much about human space exploration and human space fight over the [00:10:30] last 25 years, is that we're in a place where we're comfortable to say, well, listen. Um, uh, there are a, a broader range of [00:10:40] people who have the requisite skills and who will add value to, uh.

[00:10:45] John: Our work and our ambitions who may happen to have a disability, but, but [00:10:50] uh, actually that disability doesn't matter. similar to what, similar to I guess the direction that society is taking [00:11:00] a little bit, that, certainly in the uk, um, disability is, uh, very widely, [00:11:10] uh, what's, how would I describe it?

[00:11:13] John: Um, I think in the UK disability is, is very [00:11:20] widely accepted. You know, there has been a huge amount of, um, and a real social, uh, sociopolitical shift. You know, whether it's off the back of the, the Paralympic games back [00:11:30] in 2012 and the preceding games. But, but actually this move towards saying, well, yeah, it's just another person.

[00:11:37] John: It's just, just another person who, who's doing a [00:11:40] job. It doesn't matter whether they're. Using a wheelchair, whether they're an amputee, it doesn't matter whether they're female, doesn't matter whether they're a person of color, doesn't matter whether they're gay. It's like, it's, it's kind of like [00:11:50] bringing, it's, it's a bringing everyone together, right?

[00:11:53] John: We're moving more towards unity. and this is a step towards that a [00:12:00] constructive one. I think

[00:12:02] Markus: Beautiful. Let's go. Um, John, let's go right into the fact of the matter. [00:12:10] year, you underwent quite a bit of an adventure during the winter training in the Pyrenees. Tell us about that. How was [00:12:20] that?

[00:12:20] John: I'm a happy man when I'm cold and in the mountains. Uh, it is my happy place. Um, yeah, I mean, winter survival training [00:12:30] is part of, uh, issa's astronaut basic training, and it was important for us as part of our initiative here at, at the European Space Agency as part of the FLY initiative. [00:12:40] To be able to demonstrate that me as an amputee, wearing a prosthesis could undertake the same training, um, as my counterparts.

[00:12:48] John: And I had absolutely no problem doing [00:12:50] that. And it was great. We went to the, the Spanish Pyrenees, as you said, um, and had some good snow, had some decent cold weather, um, [00:13:00] slept out under the stars in our snow graves. And uh, yeah, it was great. And for me, there are few better places to be in the [00:13:10] mountain than in the mountains.

[00:13:10] John: So that's both in the summer and, and in the winter. And to go to be able to go hiking in the snow with snow shoes and sleeping out snow holes [00:13:20] overnight, great. Loved it.

[00:13:22] Markus: So you were, um, one in a party of other astronaut candidates, um, [00:13:30] with all limbs and you with a lacking limb, is that right? So this, this was no, no group reduced to [00:13:40] people lacking limbs.

[00:13:41] John: No, and there's no, no special dispensation. You know, I didn't ask, I've got no reason to ask for any changes to the [00:13:50] program because, you know what, been quite important to, or what is quite important to stress in what we're doing here is that we are not changing the [00:14:00] requirements for being an astronaut.

[00:14:01] John: Um, we are demonstrating that someone with a physical disability can still meet the requirements, still achieve the same, the [00:14:10] same things despite the fact they have a limb missing. And I think that's,

[00:14:14] Markus: Hmm

[00:14:15] John: quite important in itself. It's not, we're not

[00:14:17] Markus: mm

[00:14:17] John: the requirements to, to be an astronaut.[00:14:20]

[00:14:20] John: And so, yeah, I, I have done all the same training as all of my other astronaut counterparts.

[00:14:24] Markus: Te tell us about that training. Um, what is, what is most [00:14:30] memorable, and maybe, first of all, why are such trainings important in the first place? If you, on your career ladder towards becoming an [00:14:40] ast, uh, uh, astronaut.

[00:14:42] John: Yeah, training serves, um, several functions really, and it very much depends on what stage of your astronaut career you're at. [00:14:50] So when I have, you know, starting here at er, the, um, the first thing we do is basic training. And basic training is designed to bring a [00:15:00] cohort of astronauts up to the same level.

[00:15:04] John: Um, and it's a recognized qualification, um, and it's [00:15:10] bringing people up to the same level. Physically. So all the, if you think about all the operational sorts of things that we've done, so the winter survival training, the sea survival training, um, the [00:15:20] centrifuge training, the um, hyperbaric chamber stuff, all these sorts of things.

[00:15:24] John: So sort of more the kind of operational type things. We all have exposure to that. And then there is the [00:15:30] classroom based stuff. There's the academic side of things. And, um, idea is to, we all, we all come from different backgrounds. I come from a medical background, other [00:15:40] people are, um, scientists, um, astronomers, uh, pilots.

[00:15:45] John: But actually we all need to know about everything [00:15:50] from to orbital mechanics to climatology, um, the way that microgravity affects the body's physiological systems, all sorts of stuff [00:16:00] like that. So that's very much your, your basic training. you know, love the operational side of, uh, of that.

[00:16:07] John: I love the going out and doing. [00:16:10] Nobody likes sitting in a classroom with death by PowerPoint. It's kind of, but it's kind of an essential part. So I always used to love the, the operational side of things, getting out and about. [00:16:20] But actually when I look back as well, one of the reasons I ended up as a doctor and, and one of the reasons why I wanted to pursue this was I love learning.

[00:16:29] John: [00:16:30] I'm so interested in the way that stuff works and that, um, is totally true for all the many, many classes that we [00:16:40] had in, uh, you know, environmental sciences and geology and, and everything. But it's like, wow, this is, this is a crash course in pretty much every scientific [00:16:50] discipline, uh, related to, to our solar system and space travel.

[00:16:55] John: And it was

[00:16:55] Markus: What a privilege.

[00:16:56] John: Yeah. Yeah. I was like a kid in a sweet shop. You know, it's,

[00:16:59] Markus: [00:17:00] Hmm.

[00:17:00] John: just learning so much, just this sponge, which is very much me. I'm, absolute sponge when it comes to, to, to knowledge.

[00:17:08] Markus: What were those [00:17:10] most memorable events or memories you are taking away from, from that winter training?

[00:17:17] John: The most [00:17:20] memorable? Uh, so, uh, I think the most memorable moments from winter survival training were [00:17:30] the very early morning. Starts out in the snow, um, still dark, sometimes snowing, [00:17:40] peacefulness, the quiet of the mountains, um, and the camaraderie as well. The fact that we were all there together, [00:17:50] we were all, um, part of a team, uh, trying to achieve a common goal, which was to, you know, look after ourselves, um, undertake [00:18:00] tasks as a team, complete the tasks.

[00:18:03] John: Yeah, it was, it was good. It was, it was, uh, it was a, a great week in the [00:18:10] mountains.

[00:18:12] Markus: Fantastic. And you were being. Observed by a team of, [00:18:20] I dunno, medical ex experts and science folks and, and whatnot. And they would like, it's, it's like, um, you know, those container shows, [00:18:30] the Big Brother shows something like this, right? They were watching you and then, um, deducing who gets to the next stage or [00:18:40] who needs to, to leave the, the, team.

[00:18:44] John: no, thankfully there was no reality show aspect, uh, to it. But we [00:18:50] were, were observed by our instructors. Um, and, but this was mainly actually for. The leadership roles and, uh, where we were [00:19:00] assigned sort of command tasks. So it's like, right, this is your job. You have to get from A to B. This has happened and that has happened.

[00:19:07] John: Um, these are your resources. How are you [00:19:10] gonna deal with it? So and so is your leader. Um, so and so is the deputy. Right? Go and go and do the task. And, uh, that's quite [00:19:20] interesting. Uh, it's, uh, and you really bond, right, as a team, as as a group when, when you do that sort of stuff. And there, there is no competition there, which is what, [00:19:30] what I love about it.

[00:19:30] John: It's, there's no competition between us when it comes to that sort of stuff. So, uh, yeah, it's good fun.

[00:19:36] Markus: Fantastic. What's, um, what do you [00:19:40] think is your superpower out there? Would you be the commander? Or would you be, I dunno, who would you be?

[00:19:47] John: Good question. Do you know, I, I, I remember I got [00:19:50] asked in, during the interview process, um. So we, we had to fill out lots of questionnaires on during the selection [00:20:00] process, right? And uh, um, some of those questions were about leadership and stuff, and what kind of leader are you? And I think I answered in there that I'm, I, I'm [00:20:10] not a natural leader.

[00:20:11] John: Um, this came up in the, in the interview, um, we talk about my role when I'm working in, in an [00:20:20] operating theater. What do you do as part of a team in an operating theater and, and X, y, z and what do you do in stressful situations when you're on call and, uh, as a surgeon in a hospital? [00:20:30] And, uh, and they said to me, but you, you said you're not a leader.

[00:20:35] John: And I was like, I, well, I, I, I think by that I [00:20:40] mean, rarely would I volunteer myself for a leadership role. Um, I think what tends to happen is a situation arises [00:20:50] and. Organically, I end up that position. Um, not because I ha want to be in that [00:21:00] position or I've, uh, I have ambition to be in that position.

[00:21:04] John: It's just the way that the situation's evolved. And maybe that's just my approach to problem solving. It's a bit of [00:21:10] a practical, pragmatic, logical to approach things with, you know, I, I, I view myself as a pretty good communicator with

[00:21:19] Markus: Hmm,

[00:21:19] John: [00:21:20] uh, and reading people and that sort of stuff. So, and, and maybe that's, uh, maybe that's one of my strengths.

[00:21:27] Markus: Hmm. [00:21:30] Tell us more about, be trying to become an a, um, astronaut. Um, your. Being put through multiple [00:21:40] ringers, I guess, and how long does it take and how does it start? And once you are through with it, um, what [00:21:50] makes you, or what have, where have you improved and, and what makes you then more, um, [00:22:00] apt to doing what you're expected to do as an astronaut than before?

[00:22:04] Markus: What does a typical training look like?

[00:22:07] John: Okay, so you're not talking about the [00:22:10] selection process itself actually, once

[00:22:11] Markus: Yes.

[00:22:12] John: you've been,

[00:22:12] Markus: yeah.

[00:22:13] John: and, and what you do.

[00:22:15] Markus: Yeah.

[00:22:16] John: I think because you are selected, there is, there [00:22:20] is an amount of assumed competency there, right? Um, your ability, uh, to do many things. I think, manage, do things like managing high workload, managing your [00:22:30] emotions, decision making, all sorts of stuff like that.

[00:22:34] John: Really, the, the training that you get when you start, um, is designed [00:22:40] to give you a really broad understanding Uh, what you might be exposed to in your role as an astronaut. And that is [00:22:50] truly multifaceted, right? It's truly multifaceted, and you really have to be a bit of a Swiss Army knife, um, uh, as an astronaut because you have to do so many [00:23:00] things, whether it's, you know, um, operational based stuff where you have to do your tasks and it's okay, right?

[00:23:06] John: You need to learn about this and you need to execute these procedures. You need to do [00:23:10] bam, bam, bam, all this. Or is it going in inspiring cool school kids, uh, in, in a school, um, for example. Or, [00:23:20] um, is it, uh, being able to live in hostile environments and hostile conditions, or is it actually, um. complex social situations with, [00:23:30] uh, communication skills and leadership, uh, and that sort of stuff.

[00:23:33] John: So are so many skills, um, that you have to have. And also the science, [00:23:40] understanding the scientific experiments to a degree that you are involved in. And also thinking about what science can we do to really, um, move, [00:23:50] uh, certain fields forward? What do I know? What can I bring from my side of things to help, uh, benefit humans in the future, both on earth and, and in [00:24:00] human space flights?

[00:24:00] John: So there's so much going on.

[00:24:04] Markus: Great. So I'm, I'm, I'm just wondering if we're putting ourselves now [00:24:10] into, into being in space, um, I guess up there it's not. At all about any physical ability anymore, because you have, [00:24:20] you are in, not in zero gravity being but in reduced gravity microgravity. That is, is is this a good place [00:24:30] to rethink what excellence looks like? Because I, I don't know, you may have watched for all mankind, the [00:24:40] series.

[00:24:40] John: Some of it. Yeah, I've seen some of it.

[00:24:43] Markus: Yeah. Did you like it?

[00:24:44] John: Yeah. Um, I haven't watched all of it, but it's, yeah, it's really interesting.

[00:24:48] Markus: I mean, like, how those [00:24:50] guys were portrayed? I mean, like, of course it's fiction, but I, I assume the portrayal of the heroes from the Apollos as super athletes [00:25:00] was pretty much in close to reality. So I'm, I'm just thinking. Are we, do we need to rethink all [00:25:10] this and rethink what excellence looks like?

[00:25:12] Markus: Because the mu muscular six pack ripped body is not really necessary out [00:25:20] there, I guess.

[00:25:22] John: I think you have to consider that in the context of the evolution of the, um, of the [00:25:30] human space exploration programs, right? What are the requirements of an astronaut? And they have varied throughout the history of human space flights. Um, [00:25:40] and I think when you are looking at, um, certainly the lunar stuff, uh, and what technology and what equipment, you know, astronauts had available to them [00:25:50] back then, uh, you did have to be very physically capable because.

[00:25:56] Markus: As opposed, to the dragon capsule where it's [00:26:00] like almost like going on a star liner.

[00:26:02] John: Well, the, some of the forces are still the same. It's more actually what you have to do at the other end. So, actually on the moon, because if you think back, back [00:26:10] in the early space flight days, the actual duration of time that people spent in space was very, very short.

[00:26:15] Markus: Hmm.

[00:26:16] John: all the testing leading up to, um, up to the, the, [00:26:20] uh, up to Apollo 11, for example, those flights were, were a very much short duration, what we would now call consider short duration, and they never left.

[00:26:29] John: [00:26:30] spacecraft, right? They never left their, uh, their spacecraft, so they didn't have to go and walk on the moon and do those physical, uh, demanding activities.

[00:26:39] Markus: Hmm.

[00:26:39] John: [00:26:40] actually, guys who, um, landed on the moon and walked on the moon and the work that they did, they had to shift some serious weight around on the moon.

[00:26:48] John: It was pretty physical, although, you [00:26:50] know, even with the, the lunar gravity, you had 120 kilo, 130 kilo objects that that needed moving around, um, by [00:27:00] hand, uh, and stuff. So that's, that's pretty impressive when, when you think about it. now the demands of living and working on the space station are very, [00:27:10] very different.

[00:27:10] John: And we moved from, uh, this era of of, uh, space exploration to low earth [00:27:20] orbit, prolonged low earth orbit exploration, post the Apollo era, and even in those early days. with the space shuttle era, when [00:27:30] the space station was being built, it was still very physically demanding because the, the, it's really hard doing e vs.

[00:27:38] John: So doing spacewalks, doing extravehicular [00:27:40] activity is very, very demanding, uh, on the

[00:27:43] Markus: Why? Why is that? Why, why is that so,

[00:27:45] John: big part of it is because the suit is pressurized. Um, so you are, [00:27:50] you're in a big, cumbersome suit that is pressurized. So every movement is against the resistance in the material

[00:27:56] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:57] John: pressure inside the suit is, is making.

[00:27:59] John: And

[00:27:59] Markus: [00:28:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:28:00] John: and it makes, um, every movement more exaggerated,

[00:28:04] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:05] John: um, especially gripping, uh, uh, stuff and moving your, you have to move yourself [00:28:10] around using your arms. So it is quite a demanding environment, especially, uh, and you know, those who have, who's done the training in the national, uh, in the [00:28:20] neutral buoyancy laboratory in, um.

[00:28:22] John: Houston will tell you that it's physically really, really tough, tough work. You know, you're in there six, seven [00:28:30] hours at a time, uh, in this suit doing all the, you know, every movement is harder than it is, uh, when you're not in the suit. So still physically [00:28:40] demanding, but is only a very small proportion of your time allocation.

[00:28:45] John: Now in, in the current human space flight program that we have, which is living and [00:28:50] working on the, on the space station, so physical requirements of living and working in space now are slightly less. But the main reason we exercise [00:29:00] now in spaces so we don't lose our health, we

[00:29:04] Markus: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:29:05] John: bone density, our

[00:29:06] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:06] John: our cardiovascular health.

[00:29:08] John: and [00:29:10] that's hugely important part of it. going back to I think what you were originally, asking was, um, I still think. [00:29:20] Human space exploration is going to be a quite a physical endeavor, and especially when we go back to [00:29:30] the moon again, it will be a physical endeavor. Um, so yes, living in microgravity, guess a lot of the, the videos that people see of [00:29:40] astronauts floating around inside the International Space Station, it looks like they don't need much strength or, uh, you know, the use of their limbs.

[00:29:48] John: It's true, but [00:29:50] you cannot maintain that long term. You do have to stay fit and healthy. You do have to stay strong. Uh, and that's important, especially, you know, if you're talking about long, [00:30:00] um, long phasing, long,

[00:30:03] Markus: Mm

[00:30:04] John: periods going from

[00:30:05] Markus: hmm.

[00:30:05] John: to Mars, for example. If you don't stay physically fit by the time you get [00:30:10] to

[00:30:10] Markus: Hmm.

[00:30:10] John: a third of the Earth's gravity, are you gonna be able to be strong enough To

[00:30:16] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:17] John: of the rocket the other side and, and do the jobs you're gonna need to, [00:30:20] to do on the surface of Mars, those sorts of things. So, um, I think still physical, uh, and I think what we are demonstrating is that [00:30:30] with disabilities can still do the physical jobs.

[00:30:33] Markus: When you were mentioning, um, um, astronauts float, uh, floating through, [00:30:40] or the images floating through the space station, um, you're the first person now I can like ask, um, if something I heard at some point [00:30:50] is true. Um, I heard in Zero gravity, um, the easiest way if you wanna lock someone up is to [00:31:00] put him in the middle of a room is because you we'll never be able to get anywhere in that room.

[00:31:06] Markus: Is, is that right or is this an internet [00:31:10] myth?

[00:31:10] John: No, it's, it, theoretically, theoretically true. And I think this was one of the potential, um, risks of the earlier, um, [00:31:20] stations, the earlier low Earth orbit stations, uh, where, uh, one of the original ones was actually, the former booster of the [00:31:30] Saturn five Rocket that was turned into, uh, uh, Skylab, um, was turned into a, a, uh, a station.

[00:31:38] John: And actually you could potentially get [00:31:40] stranded, uh, in the middle because it, if you are in true, true microgravity, it is, it is potential. But in reality, know, you're probably not [00:31:50] staying still long enough to actually stop I mean,

[00:31:53] Markus: Yeah.

[00:31:54] John: in International Space Station, everything is reachable. You can reach, uh, uh, [00:32:00] anything.

[00:32:00] John: It is an arm's length away. Pretty much the, the, the, the overhead or the deck or whatever is always an, an arm's length away, but it's theoretically [00:32:10] possible.

[00:32:10] Markus: So if someone wanted to build a prison in space, um, they would exactly know how to do it. They wouldn't even need walls. That's, a pretty cheap [00:32:20] concept. Okay. This is,

[00:32:21] John: Nice idea, interesting concept, interesting idea.

[00:32:25] Markus: um, how does it feel for you, John, to be [00:32:30] in the spotlight of all this, in the spotlight of I mean, like Guinea pig is the wrong word, but you are in the spotlight of, [00:32:40] an experiment, a large experiment that everything seems like you are on the right track and you are helping reshape, um, uh, how [00:32:50] we do things in space and maybe also on earth.

[00:32:52] Markus: How does that feel? Does that put pressure on you?

[00:32:55] John: Try not to think about it. Try not to think about it. I don't

[00:32:59] Markus: [00:33:00] good choice.

[00:33:00] John: I, yeah. Um, I, I think first and foremost, I'm hugely proud and humbled to be part, uh, of this initiative, [00:33:10] right? And I am not the only person in this initiative. There is a team of people working to that have, and have done a huge amount of work to, to try and make [00:33:20] this happen.

[00:33:21] John: Um, I guess sometimes I feel a little bit exposed in the fact that I am just one individual. Uh, and at the moment, um, [00:33:30] the, the work that we have done has been based around me. Some of the lessons we've learned are transferable to other disabilities as well, similar lower limb disabilities. [00:33:40] But I, you know, Issa is the only space agency in the world are doing this.

[00:33:46] John: I am the only person. As far as I know [00:33:50] in the world who is in this position. and I, I guess I only feel vulnerable because I don't wanna let people down. know, I don't want, for whatever reason, you know, if [00:34:00] there was, uh, you know, touch with it won't happen. But for, for whatever reason there, um, there was reason why I couldn't fly, [00:34:10] um, yeah, I would be mortified have let so many people down.

[00:34:17] John: That's, that's probably what I catch myself [00:34:20] thinking the most. But, but, yeah.

[00:34:23] Markus: hmm. Interesting. [00:34:30] But you're, um, a professional. You're a, you know how to, especially as a former professional athlete, you know how to deal with [00:34:40] stress and you know how to deal with being in a spotlight. So I think that was a, that was a nice precursor for what you're doing right now. So it's all building [00:34:50] up.

[00:34:50] John: Yeah, I I'm in a super privileged position. I

[00:34:56] Markus: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:57] John: yeah, it's, I'm a lucky guy[00:35:00]

[00:35:00] Markus: Yeah. Um, John, most space tech was made one body type in [00:35:10] mind, um, maybe even a male body type in mind. Then at some point we started opening up, uh, toward female astronauts and, and personnel. And [00:35:20] now I think this could now become the next stage of evolution. What, what happens do you think when we start designing from scratch [00:35:30] in space? Um, I think I could imagine from my lay perspective that, um, things could look drastically different if we [00:35:40] start designing. I'm hesitant to use that word inclusive, but you know what I mean. Start designing for everyone.

[00:35:49] John: [00:35:50] Adaptive. Yeah. Um,

[00:35:51] Markus: exactly.

[00:35:52] John: you are right. And historically the problem has been we are, we are fitting humans to [00:36:00] the hardware that the engineers have have designed. Right. Um, and it will not change until we start from scratch, as you say, [00:36:10] until we start considering different abilities at the design phase. what I really hope is that what we're doing [00:36:20] at ESA is creating a, a, a foundation and a legacy to allow us to do that in a, in a more informed way.

[00:36:27] John: You know, what I'm doing is so, so small, [00:36:30] uh, in the grand scheme of things, but it's, it's, it's a stepping stone. It's a very, very small stepping stone, um, that will, [00:36:40] uh. Although maybe small will be quite powerful at opening the door to, uh, being able to have discussions about other [00:36:50] disabilities and then looking at how we can integrate, um, adaptive systems at the design phase for [00:37:00] different types of disabilities, different types of people.

[00:37:04] John: Um, but yeah, you're right. Until you start designing things in from scratch, things will, [00:37:10] will not be, uh, accessible by, uh, to as many people.

[00:37:16] Markus: Do you know if other agencies are watching? [00:37:20] Like, are, is NASA watching your progress and what, what ISA does?

[00:37:24] John: Absolutely. Absolutely. And we, you know, in order to achieve what we've achieved, we had to work quite [00:37:30] closely with nasa, uh, because, you know, uh, we would be using the NASA. Um, segment of the, of the space station, um, their launch [00:37:40] systems, their spacecraft, all, all that sort of stuff. So we've worked closely with them and yeah, they are very envious what we are doing.

[00:37:48] John: Uh, and, [00:37:50] and I have to say hugely, hugely supportive, um, of what we're doing. And, um, I think there are a lot of people out there wishing that, [00:38:00] um, not just, not just nasa, but a number of other people, another space agencies wishing that they had had done this first. Um, so

[00:38:07] Markus: they?[00:38:10]

[00:38:10] John: who knows? Um, who knows? Uh, I think are certain, certain constraints from, uh, an employment [00:38:20] law perspective in different parts of the world.

[00:38:22] John: Um, it's different attitudes to disability in different parts of the world. Who knows? You know, it just, I think just [00:38:30] here in Europe we We are ripe. You know, it's, it's ripe for us at this time. it's just the right time for us to, to consider [00:38:40] being able to do this. Um, and, you know, we, are proving ourselves more and more, [00:38:50] as an agency and as a, as a continent, how strong we are in the space sector.

[00:38:55] John: You know, we have delivered time after time on the projects that we, that we [00:39:00] delivered, uh, you know, with our international partners. And we are developing a reputation for that, for being good at what we do. Um, and that coupled with, [00:39:10] um, I think our sociological outlook in Europe compared to other parts of the world, um, all that coming together I think has just created the conditions for [00:39:20] this particular, opportunity.

[00:39:22] Markus: When is, um, your flight scheduled,

[00:39:28] John: [00:39:30] Uh, the $64 million question. Yeah. there is no flight scheduled for me just yet. And, um, this is what I hope we [00:39:40] will learn more about in the coming, in the coming months and years. And, um, we will see what happens. It's out of my hands. It's, [00:39:50] decision is at a political, at a political level. Um, and so we will see what happens over the next six to 12 months.

[00:39:58] Markus: how is that [00:40:00] decision made? You said it's a political decision, so I guess it's all about which country gets it and which country doesn't get it, and then in, in those [00:40:10] countries there are. Multiple options maybe. So how does that usually work?

[00:40:16] John: yeah, it's, it's a pretty complex, um, [00:40:20] pretty complex process. And what you also have to consider is it's not just the member states within. The European Space Agency [00:40:30] having to have conversations about will fly and when and what that will ultimately, um, cost. But it's also, um, are there [00:40:40] seats in rockets for astronauts to, to sit in, you know, where are those flights going to come from?

[00:40:47] John: at the moment, uh, Europe [00:40:50] has, you know, just over an 8% stake in the International Space Station. uh, that means that there are [00:41:00] limited opportunities flights for European astronauts related to that eight, just over 8% stake. [00:41:10] so it's a, it's a big machine and, um, it's not a straightforward decision making process.

[00:41:15] John: There's a,

[00:41:16] Markus: Mm

[00:41:16] John: a lot,

[00:41:17] Markus: mm

[00:41:17] John: behind the scenes.

[00:41:18] Markus: mm [00:41:20] Did you watch the latest star flight launch last weekend?

[00:41:23] John: didn't actually know. No, I didn't watch the latest Starship one. Um, what's the gossip? Tell me.

[00:41:28] Markus: Now it's [00:41:30] fantastic. I mean, like for the first time it didn't blow up. Um, and all the engines, all the boosters, um, did work. Um, so it was a [00:41:40] pretty successful launch attempt. Um, I think it was the last one before the next, uh, next and even bigger, um, [00:41:50] version Starship. Um, but I'm just wondering, because you are the closest [00:42:00] being affected by vehicles that bring people upward, what do you make of Starship?

[00:42:08] Markus: Um, as opposed [00:42:10] to. Other vehicles bringing us into orbit, the space station maybe in a couple of years to the moon. But Starship is a [00:42:20] different beast with a different goal. So what, what do you make of that?

[00:42:24] John: I, think Starship is, is a phenomenal piece of engineering and, uh, I've always been [00:42:30] fascinated and, and amazed by, um, SpaceX's ability to iterate, um, to spend money on building something, stick it up in the air, see [00:42:40] what happens to it, get a whole bunch of data from it, process it, learn from it, and go again.

[00:42:45] John: I think that's what's really fantastic. And to be honest with you, this is what the, you know, [00:42:50] it's this attitude and approach to getting into space that the space industry needs and having that, that flexibility, this is something that's very, very difficult to do in Europe. Certainly [00:43:00] with this, you know, with the, the member state structure that, that we have and actually deciding on how to move forward, it's, it's very, very difficult.

[00:43:08] John: Uh.

[00:43:09] Markus: And [00:43:10] also, and also because you are, um, reporting to taxpayers it gets really tricky if you blow up an, uh, uh, a Starship after Starship [00:43:20] or, or whatever. and you need to answer to taxpayers questions. Starship doesn't really need to care about something like this [00:43:30] because the money comes from, mostly from SpaceX and from some someone else.

[00:43:35] John: absolutely. And but that is, that's partly to do with the model that's, uh, that [00:43:40] the agency has, right? And, um, we should be devolving responsibility to industry more and more to make those decisions. So the, the cost doesn't then lie with, [00:43:50] with the taxpayer. It lies with, um, industry to, to say, well, how best are we gonna achieve the goals that Issa wants us to achieve?

[00:43:57] John: Well, that's our responsibility. We have the contract with them, which is [00:44:00] X, which is the taxpayer's money, which is guaranteed, and this is how we're gonna achieve it. So you, you want to devolve some of that responsibility to, to the private sector, um, so that, [00:44:10] you know, the taxpayer doesn't harbor the risk.

[00:44:13] Markus: Uh, exactly. I think we have a very good example, um, um, with [00:44:20] Issa, with, uh, the Aryan program. Um, just imagine, uh, and we all know that the latest iteration of Aryan. Took a while, uh, to, [00:44:30] to, uh, to get space ready for an obvious reason. Uh, because if Arianne blows up, um, taxpayers will [00:44:40] or member states will very quickly question ESA altogether. And, and this is, this is the risk Issa runs and this is [00:44:50] why they need to make sure everything is super safe. Same holds true for nasa. And this is, this is what's holding us [00:45:00] back. I, I think, so this is not Issa's fault, of course, this is a fault of a structure and that that hinders technological [00:45:10] evolution and innovation.

[00:45:11] Markus: I.

[00:45:11] John: Yeah. And I think if you look back to the, to the Apollo eras, um, it was a, an obscene amount of GDP that was going [00:45:20] into the program, and they, and they had the ability to move quickly and iterate because they threw money at the problem. Um, and you would never, uh, [00:45:30] nowadays, you'd never imagine that sort of, uh, percentage of GDP going into, um, space exploration.

[00:45:37] John: So I think if you had [00:45:40] billions and billions and billions to throw at the problem, you

[00:45:42] Markus: Yeah.

[00:45:43] John: could, do it. And in a, in this intergovernmental organization that [00:45:50] we, we have, we just, we don't have that, that

[00:45:53] Markus: Mm mm

[00:45:55] John: capability.

[00:45:56] Markus: mm I got a fun question for you. [00:46:00] Um, would you rather float untethered for 30 seconds or eat astronaut rations for a month?

[00:46:08] John: [00:46:10] I'd float untethered for 30 seconds.

[00:46:15] Markus: Good.

[00:46:16] John: Yeah.

[00:46:17] Markus: Are you actually, actually, are you, [00:46:20] um, do you get astronaut food on earth to get used to it? How does it taste and get your stomach, um, used to it.

[00:46:29] John: This is [00:46:30] not something that I am very familiar with because I'm not at any, I've not been assigned to a mission and at that stage of, of training at all. But people I have spoken to who've, who've been [00:46:40] through, uh, that sort of thing, you do, you, you, um, you have to learn about what food you will, you will take and why you take sp, you know, [00:46:50] certain types of food, um, what the nutritional requirements are that are required for space are.

[00:46:57] John: but yeah, it's, it's slightly different to being, being [00:47:00] on earth. Uh, things like different, different salt contents, different amount of amounts of fiber and, and that sort of stuff.

[00:47:07] Markus: But what is, I mean, like, we're [00:47:10] both runners, so is it gel like food, uh, on the space station or what is it or,

[00:47:15] John: mixture. It's a mixture. There are, there are a whole range of things. So there are, um, freeze dried [00:47:20] and dehydrated foods. There are foods that are wet that just need warming up. Um, those sorts of things. So it is a bit of, bit of a [00:47:30] mixture.

[00:47:30] Markus: okay. John, when a, a kid with a disability sees you in that flight suit, um, hopefully sooner [00:47:40] than later, what do you hope they feel?

[00:47:42] John: Empowered. I hope they feel empowered if they see [00:47:50] that, and they, they see a happy future for themselves where they are, a valued, uh, [00:48:00] member of society. Getting out there, grabbing life by the shortened cur leads and going and living it is how, how I hope they feel.

[00:48:09] Markus: [00:48:10] Beautiful. Would you rather go to Mars or to the moon if the call came?

[00:48:17] John: To the [00:48:20] moon,

[00:48:20] Markus: Because it's, um, if you don't like it, you can go back, um, on the next bus.

[00:48:25] John: it's a bit quicker to get back from the moon. [00:48:30] Yeah.

[00:48:30] Markus: Why not? Why not Mars?

[00:48:32] John: I am purely saying that, um, our existing knowledge, right in the context [00:48:40] of our existing knowledge, we don't know what it's like to operate on the surface of, of Mars. Um, we have a track [00:48:50] record of being on the moon. Um, it's, you know, seems more attainable and achievable. uh, [00:49:00] and yeah, I think, um, maybe it's a, uh.

[00:49:09] John: I'm thinking [00:49:10] about my family too much. If it was just me,

[00:49:12] Markus: Yeah.

[00:49:12] John: if it was just

[00:49:13] Markus: mm

[00:49:14] John: and, was, I wasn't attached to anyone and, knew that nobody cared about me,[00:49:20]

[00:49:20] Markus: mm

[00:49:21] John: and I didn't care about anyone else, then, then maybe I'd consider going to,

[00:49:25] Markus: mm.

[00:49:25] John: Mars and being that pine, being part of that pioneering for [00:49:30] sure.

[00:49:33] John: my life is not like that.

[00:49:34] Markus: Um, I'm very privileged with you as a [00:49:40] medical doctor in the room right now. Um, so let me ask you this. Um, I'm told that 50% if we were to go to Mars. In [00:49:50] the next five to seven years, um, I'm told that 50% of the astronauts will not come back because they won't survive it [00:50:00] because of the radiation problems still being unsolved. is this something that concerns you also as a medical doctor?

[00:50:08] John: I think [00:50:10] the single most, uh, significant barrier to humans having a sustained presence in [00:50:20] deep space is, is gonna be radiation.

[00:50:22] Markus: hmm.

[00:50:22] John: Um, and until we learn how to manage the risks of, uh, exposure [00:50:30] to, to radiation in space, it's gonna make, uh, deep space exploration incredibly, incredibly difficult. Um, we we're just not there yet, but yeah.

[00:50:39] John: Um, [00:50:40] it's really interesting. As part of our training, we, we've had to learn an awful lot about the, the effects of radiation. We do radiation biology. Um, and it's a very, very interesting, [00:50:50] very interesting topic. There are minimal risks in the current space exploration, the current space program, so living and work [00:51:00] on the space station, risks of the different radiation environments are negligible.

[00:51:05] John: Um. but there's some really interesting stuff going on related to that, you know, [00:51:10] 'cause you've got the, you've got, um, the cosmic radiation, you've got the galactic

[00:51:15] Markus: Hmm.

[00:51:16] John: cosmic rays, which is one side of things. And then you've got the, um, the sun's [00:51:20] radiation, which is the other thing. So there's these

[00:51:21] Markus: Hmm,

[00:51:21] John: these two major components, um, that, that

[00:51:24] Markus: hmm,

[00:51:24] John: Uh, when we have these big solar flares, for example,

[00:51:28] Markus: hmm.

[00:51:29] John: you get [00:51:30] less, um, get galactic cosmic rays or the effects of g uh, galactic cosmic rays are less because you have more, um, solar particle

[00:51:38] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:39] John: then you have [00:51:40] more problems with the radiation from the sun and, and vice versa. But, um, an interesting mission that's coming up, it's due to launch, I think in 30 31.

[00:51:48] John: It's an

[00:51:49] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:49] John: It's [00:51:50] called vigil, which is, uh, going to be a satellite that is basically gonna be following the earth around the sun

[00:51:56] Markus: Mm.

[00:51:56] John: a particular point, and taking [00:52:00] observations of the sun. So basically solar weather, and is will act as an early warning. system for, for Earth and, [00:52:10] you know,

[00:52:10] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:11] John: satellite constellations around earth and stuff as well.

[00:52:14] John: So that's quite interesting. But yeah, radiation is, uh, a hugely, uh, [00:52:20] difficult phenomenon to manage in, in space exploration.

[00:52:23] Markus: How can I imagine radiation or the effect of radiation on the human, [00:52:30] um, body? What, how can I imagine that to be? Like, is, is this like the closest we can get to it on Earth is a sunburn, I guess? [00:52:40] Um, is, is that right?

[00:52:43] John: no, it's, it's not quite right. Yeah. So we, we, we experience sunburn because of the, the sun's, uh, ionizing [00:52:50] radiation, but actually sunburn is probably the only thing that we see. more what we don't see. That is the problem. And um, [00:53:00] although you see your skin as a little bit bit red or whatever, um, you've gotta think of what is a lot deeper.

[00:53:05] John: All of those, uh, energetic particles coming from the sun are passing [00:53:10] straight through your body, and as they pass straight through your body, they are passing straight through cells. These, so these particles are, are tiny, right? They're tiny, tiny, tiny, [00:53:20] you know, subatomic sort of, uh, level, and they're passing through your, your cells, um, and smashing into DNA [00:53:30] and doing colossal amounts of damage to whatever is in their, in their path.

[00:53:35] John: Um, and those are the effects of, of radiation. So there are acute effects of [00:53:40] radiation and there are long-term effects of radiation. So you can get very sick from, Radiation exposure [00:53:50] acutely if the dose of radiation is high enough. And that has to be quite high doses. It's what we call acute radiation sickness.

[00:53:55] John: And essentially what happens is that radiation, that ionizing [00:54:00] radiation damages so many cells in your body. So it kills, it smashes up the DNA, those cells are no longer to able to repair themselves, so they die. [00:54:10] um, and all parts of your body suffer. Um, you know, and that can be a problem. So that's acute radiation sickness.[00:54:20]

[00:54:20] John: there's the chronic long-term effects, um, of radiation exposure. And that is, um, micro damage if you like. So, [00:54:30] um, these energetic particles damaging certain genes within DNA. In our cells, and it may be genes that are responsible for, um, cell [00:54:40] repair or DNA repair even. Um, uh, and also, uh, genes that are responsible for preventing tumors, um, and those sorts of things.

[00:54:49] John: We [00:54:50] have genes in our body that are responsible for preventing tumors, uh, and a whole range of other genes to repair DNA. If those are damaged by [00:55:00] radiation, um, then you'll get increased incidences of, of cancer, for example. Those are the problems with, with long-term sort of chronic radiation. [00:55:10] Sorry, that was

[00:55:11] Markus: So the, the main problem, no, no,

[00:55:13] John: I got a bit medical there.

[00:55:15] Markus: no. It's fantastic. Uh, so the problem is not an immediate, [00:55:20] immediate, um, reaction caused by radiation that I'm bleeding from my eyes as, or whatever, as science [00:55:30] fiction is telling us all the time, uh, from science fiction movies. But it's more like that I'm developing some sort of cancer.

[00:55:37] John: Yeah, that's the chronic side of things. The bleeding from the [00:55:40] eyes thing is, is real as well. That's acute radiation sickness because that's because, and the reason why you would be bleeding from orifices and from your eyes is because, uh, the radiation, you've [00:55:50] had a high, really been exposed to a high dose of radiation that a lot of the cells that make up the walls of your blood vessels have been obliterated

[00:55:58] Markus: Okay.

[00:55:59] John: blood

[00:55:59] Markus: Okay.

[00:55:59] John: are no

[00:55:59] Markus: [00:56:00] Mm

[00:56:00] John: um, able to contain the blood and, and you, and you bleed.

[00:56:05] Markus: mm

[00:56:05] John: that's, and that's what we call acute radiation sickness.

[00:56:08] Markus: Okay, [00:56:10] great. Um, John, so you said you circumstances were different in many ways, you would be ready to [00:56:20] go beyond the moon, maybe even further. So my question to you, and this is a question I keep asking each of my guests, um, traveling [00:56:30] into space exciting, but at some point gets quite boring because the distances are very. Vast. And at some [00:56:40] point you're just, you've had it. So my question to you, what one piece of music would you not want to miss on that [00:56:50] playlist you are bringing with you? And what one piece of music is the one that keeps you entertained?

[00:56:57] John: Markus, that's a, [00:57:00] that's a difficult question. That's like, uh, impossible question.

[00:57:04] Markus: And I'm not talking about an album, I'm talking about a one piece of music. And by the way, we do have a [00:57:10] playlist on Spotify called This Playlist for the Aspiring Space Traveler. And that playlist consists of all the contributions from our guests. So I'm very curious to, to hear

[00:57:19] John: [00:57:20] Oh,

[00:57:20] Markus: choice.

[00:57:21] John: now the question is, is that gonna influence my choice? Now you said it could potentially be, could potentially be public. Oh.[00:57:30]

[00:57:32] John: That's a good question. Do you know there, there, there are a few songs. There are a few songs, but I'm only allowed one, right? [00:57:40] Markus only, only

[00:57:40] Markus: Yes. Yes. And we have all musical styles already. We have classical, we have Iron Maiden, we have Britney [00:57:50] Spears, we have Abba, we have, I dunno, everything.

[00:57:58] John: Do you know what there is? [00:58:00] Um, uh, is a live version of, think it's like 16 minutes long. [00:58:10] There's a live version of status quos 4,500 times

[00:58:14] Markus: Ha.

[00:58:15] John: and I think they played it at Milton Keynes

[00:58:17] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:18] John: 1979 [00:58:20] or something like that. And, uh, it's still one of my favorite go-to pick me up pieces of music. Uh. That [00:58:30] fails to, to get me going.

[00:58:33] Markus: Wonderful. Wonderful. I'll put that up on the playlist immediately.

[00:58:39] John: would have [00:58:40] to be. It would have to be the live, the long,

[00:58:42] Markus: Yes,

[00:58:42] John: though.

[00:58:43] Markus: yes,

[00:58:44] John: trunk, the truncated one just, just doesn't quite

[00:58:47] Markus: Yeah. Yeah. [00:58:50] I'm, I'm really curious to check it out myself. I haven't heard of it before. Um, yeah, and my last question to you, John, [00:59:00] this is the Space Cafe Podcast, a. A coffee place, if you will, where we sit down and have conversations.

[00:59:09] Markus: And [00:59:10] sometimes, um, when you will need a little shot of inspiration for energy, you drink a hot, a, a, a shot, a strong shot of coffee. And now I [00:59:20] challenge you to share an espresso for the mind with me, with the audience, a shot of inspiration. You feel like that could be energizing for the [00:59:30] audience and it doesn't really matter what kind of topic you want to talk about.

[00:59:33] John: You know what I think I, I I will tell you about, um, some very [00:59:40] simple words that I have kept with me since I had my accident 25 years ago that that really resonate with me. And when I find things are getting a bit [00:59:50] tough and I have to kind of refocus myself and go, come on mate. You know, on with it.

[00:59:57] John: Yeah. not going your way [01:00:00] or then I, I always reflect and use these, these words or this, this phrase. And the Christmas after I had my [01:00:10] accident, um, you know, my parents were pretty upset, um, by my new situation. They knew how adventurous I was and how much I love to [01:00:20] explore, and, and now they worried that with my disability, that.

[01:00:23] John: Uh, I wouldn't be able to achieve the things or get, be fulfilled or get the fulfillment out of [01:00:30] life that I had once aspired to get. And, um, they gave me this Christmas present and it was a giant atlas [01:00:40] of, of the earth. And ' cause I always used to love up an atlas and just browsing and going. I'd love to go there and, uh, and travel from there to [01:00:50] there, and which indeed inspire many of my, my journeys that I, that I've been on.

[01:00:53] John: You know, I traveled by train from China back to the UK for example, things like this. [01:01:00] Um, and I opened up this book and written on the inside with the words, always go the extra mile. Life will reward you. [01:01:10] And this is all about you get outta life what you put in. You know, sometimes life is hard, but just gotta, you just gotta work at it.

[01:01:17] John: And it's not always easy. But [01:01:20] if you put the effort in, you will be rewarded.

[01:01:25] Markus: This is beautiful. I don't want to. Wreck that moment by [01:01:30] adding additional words. So thank you John, for taking that time with me here on the Space Cafe Podcast. This was [01:01:40] outstandingly interesting.

[01:01:41] John: It's a pleasure. It's great to catch up with you, Markus. Uh, hopefully our paths will cross again in the future

[01:01:48] Markus: Fantastic. This is [01:01:50] again, um, take it as it is, but, um, this is one of those moments that are really inspiring, that are making my day, um, as a person, and I'm [01:02:00] as an excited podcaster. So, yeah, take it as it is.

[01:02:04] John: oh. Thank you. I, yeah, I could, I could chat to you all day. [01:02:10] Markus, 

[01:02:10] Markus: That was encouraging, wasn't it? Seriously, I mean, the sheer concept that one of the greatest adventures in [01:02:20] humanity's lifespan on this planet to venture out into space is [01:02:30] perhaps becoming the most inclusive one inclusive. To welcoming each and everyone from every walk of life and physical state. [01:02:40] I love that it's something that we, on earth are, or keep, or are still failing to, to really accomplish.

[01:02:46] Markus: And perhaps we need space. We need that hostile [01:02:50] space out there to Make us that leap into more inclu inclusivity. I love it. If you feel like this, uh, [01:03:00] could be inspiring to someone, um, consider sharing the, the episode with that person in your life. And if you wanna share something with me [01:03:10] or us here at the Space Cafe Podcast.

[01:03:14] Markus: Send in a message at, um, podcast at Space Watch Global. And other than [01:03:20] that, thanks for listening. Thanks for watching us speak with you in two weeks from now. Thank you. Bye-bye. [01:03:30]