The Ocean Isn’t Flat: ESA’s gravity maps, climate facts, and Earth’s hidden shape

Guest: Robert Meisner, Earth Observation, ESA, ESRIN

The Cosmic Scoop:
In this eye-opening episode, Markus travels to ESRIN, ESA’s Earth Observation hub in Frascati near Rome, to sit down with Robert Meisner – a man who has spent nearly 40 years watching our planet from above. Together they dive into the hidden landscapes of the ocean surface, the secrets of gravity maps, and how satellites reveal the slow but relentless transformation of our world.

From sea level rise and melting glaciers to the surreal beauty of satellite art, Robert explains why Earth observation isn’t just about data – it’s about giving our planet a voice. Along the way, he clears up climate myths, reminds us how science self-corrects, and points to the hope that comes from knowledge, action, and communication.

Quotable Insights:

• “We deliver the hard facts – like it or not. It’s not a matter of belief, it’s a matter of measurement.”
• “Almost half of today’s sea level rise comes from the warming and expansion of the oceans.”
• “The ocean surface is not flat – it’s a landscape of invisible hills and valleys shaped by gravity.”
• “Science has its own cleansing system: if nobody can disprove you, chances are it matches reality.”

Cosmic Timeline (Timestamps):

• [00:00:00] Opening: Why the ocean surface is not flat
• [00:03:00] What ESRIN does – ESA’s Earth Observation headquarters
• [00:07:00] Satellites, orbits, and why 800 km matters
• [00:10:00] Measuring ocean temperatures from space
• [00:14:00] Accuracy, salinity, and the Gulf Stream as Earth’s energy conveyor belt
• [00:17:30] Sea level rise – glaciers vs. thermal expansion
• [00:21:00] Climate denial, hard facts, and science as a self-correcting system
• [00:28:00] From drifting continents to ice ages – how new theories become accepted
• [00:29:30] The artistic beauty of satellite data
• [00:33:00] Melting glaciers, unstable Alps, and the thawing permafrost
• [00:35:00] The GOCE mission and gravity maps – why oceans have hills
• [00:43:00] Copernicus, Sentinel satellites, and Europe’s unique leadership
• [00:47:00] CO₂ monitoring from space – the upcoming game changer
• [00:49:00] Digital Twin Earth – simulating our planet’s future
• [00:50:00] The human side: 40 years of watching Earth change
• [00:54:00] Espresso for the mind – the art of science communication

Links to Explore:

• ESA Earth Observation 
• Copernicus Programme
• Digital Twin Earth initiative
  
  

Spread the Cosmic Love!
If this conversation reshaped how you see our oceans, climate, and planet, share it with your friends, your students, your colleagues. The more people understand Earth as a living system, the more hope we can build for the generations to come.

You can find us on Spotify and Apple Podcast!

Please visit us at SpaceWatch.Global, subscribe to our newsletters. Follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter!

Transcript

SCP_140_Master

[00:00:00] Robert: Oh yeah, I know that people are saying that this is complete ridiculous. Yeah. Of, of course I'm getting paid for my work. Yes. Um, but I'm not getting paid because I'm saying [00:00:10] certain things. We are just putting the facts on the table 

[00:00:13] Markus: hello everyone. This is the Space Cafe Podcast, and I'm Markus. [00:00:20] So as it so happens, very recently, I came across the strange observation that the surface of the ocean, [00:00:30] like the Atlantic or the Pacific, is not as I would expect it to be a flat surface if you. Ignored waves, of course, [00:00:40] but the surface of oceans is like a rolling, a gentle rolling, landscape with valleys, with hills [00:00:50] of water.

[00:00:51] Markus: And I was like, Hey, what is going on here? This is kind of strange. And this goes even so far as. That a ship [00:01:00] traveling the Indian Ocean from left to right would need to travel upward, literally travel upward. [00:01:10] And this brought me into the beautiful and very surprising. World of Earth observation and this world of [00:01:20] earth observations.

[00:01:20] Markus: One of the global centers in of this world is Ezrin, the European space agencies. Department [00:01:30] for Earth observation. They are, located in fti, on the outskirts of beautiful Rome in Italy. And um, so of course I knew I had to [00:01:40] go there. I had to find out where on the one end, the Copernicus fleet of Earth observation weather satellites is delivering its data [00:01:50] to, and where this data are made sense of, but also.

[00:01:54] Markus: What about this strange observation of the surface of [00:02:00] oceans? So of course I traveled to this place and I met the Mr Know it all of Earth Observation Robert Meisner before we kicked [00:02:10] this off. Um. If you, my friends, want to share something, if you, my friends, want to suggest guests or tell us that you love or hate something [00:02:20] about the show, please write into us at podcast at Space Watch Global promised each and every note is read [00:02:30] so.

[00:02:30] Markus: Without further ado, let's kick this off. Robert, welcome to the show. Welcome to the Space Cafe Podcast. Let's go. 

[00:02:38] Robert: Robert.[00:02:40]

[00:02:40] Markus: Ezrin is a pretty important department at the European Space Agency. Why is that?

[00:02:47] Robert: Well, Ezrin is one of our locations, [00:02:50] which we have all over Europe, and Ezrin stands for the European space in, uh, research Institute, and [00:03:00] we are mainly here focusing on earth observation. ISA is. Split responsibilities in [00:03:10] different locations. Our headquarters are in Paris. Mm-hmm. We have mission control, which is in Darmstadt, in Germany, the astronaut training center, also in close to Cologne in Germany, [00:03:20] and we have others.

[00:03:21] Robert: And one of them is in Italy, close to Rome, in Frasca, and is called. And we are dealing with Earth observation, but we're also looking into [00:03:30] launcher activities. Italy is quite active in the Viga Sea and Viga launcher program of the So for the Rockets,

[00:03:38] Markus: I think this is [00:03:40] important. So we have not only the famous AR Aryan Pro uh program, there's also a second secondary launcher. There is a

[00:03:47] Robert: launcher called Vega, and [00:03:50] now they've upgraded the Vega to the Vega Sea, which has a higher capacity, you can bring more weight into space. And that's Vega Sea. And it [00:04:00] is, um, currently quite successful working and we've launched one of our Earth observation satellites, um, using Vega Sea recently.

[00:04:09] Markus: Vega is a [00:04:10] little smaller than,

[00:04:11] Robert: It's smaller than the

[00:04:12] Markus: Arianne is the transport horse, and Vega is the more dynamic one.

[00:04:15] Robert: The more versatile, smaller, um, solid state [00:04:20] rocket for bringing smaller satellites into law orbits. Mm-hmm. We are, um, using that for our earth observation satellites whenever we can [00:04:30] now, but still the main focus here in Ezrin is on earth observation.

[00:04:34] Robert: So that's by far the largest activity that we're hosting here and [00:04:40] which is at home here in Italy.

[00:04:42] Markus: Earth observation. Meaning what? Because I mean like when we talk about space exploration, space activity, we usually think about [00:04:50] looking outward. But this is the other way around. This is we're looking inward. We have our gear in orbit and we look inward.

[00:04:56] Robert: for. Earth observation person like [00:05:00] me, the other guys are looking the wrong way and we are looking down. We are focusing on our home planet. We are looking at what's happening on Earth, and we do that [00:05:10] using Earth observation satellites, which we are flying around Earth.

[00:05:15] Robert: Typically at an altitude of around 800 kilometers, so 800,[00:05:20]

[00:05:20] Markus: 800. So 400 kilometers. That's the space station?

[00:05:23] Robert: Yes. Roughly 400 is the space station. Our satellites usually fly around 800 kilometers. There are some exceptions. [00:05:30] We have flown satellites as far. Down is 250 kilometers, but typically there are between 600 and 800 kilometers a very busy orbit.

[00:05:39] Robert: Lot of [00:05:40] space debris in that area as well. Or we have the so-called geostationary satellites. That's the ones that fly a different orbit. The orbit takes [00:05:50] 24 hours to fly around once. So for us, they're always on the same point because they are. Stationary, stationary for us [00:06:00] looking out, um, in fact, they're flying around Earth as at the same speed.

[00:06:04] Robert: The earth is rotating. Mm-hmm. Typically, examples for geostationary satellites are all the [00:06:10] television transmitting satellites. This is why you have, if you have a satellite dish to receive your TV program, the stitch is not moving. It's always [00:06:20] stable. It's always looking in the same direction. Mm-hmm.

[00:06:22] Robert: Because for us, the satellite is standing still over Europe or wherever we use that [00:06:30] orbit. It's 36,000 kilometers, so it's a lot further away than our typical 800 kilometers. We use these orbits [00:06:40] mainly for geostationary metrology satellites. So for the weather forecast, weather forecast plays an increasingly important role for our [00:06:50] daily life.

[00:06:50] Robert: It's not about going to the beach, of course it's also about going to the beach, but it's more about cutting on an airplane, going on a ship. [00:07:00] Mm-hmm. Transporting goods, doing, um. Predictions for harvest yield, helping [00:07:10] agriculture to manage how, when to harvest, how to harvest, what to harvest, and metrology is one of the three pillars we are basing [00:07:20] our whole observation thing on.

[00:07:21] Robert: We're building, we have three different types of satellites that we're building. One are the metrology ones for the weather. We [00:07:30] have what we call the earth explorers, which is. More an experimental area of satellites. Very important for developing new technologies. [00:07:40] And we have the very operational earth observation program from the European Union, European Commission, which where we are building [00:07:50] and delivering and controlling mostly also the satellites and launching them and, and these are the three areas where we are building and creating satellites [00:08:00] for.

[00:08:00] Markus: Hmm. Interesting. So how many satellites altogether are we talking about? We

[00:08:06] Robert: from the ESA perspective, we currently have [00:08:10] 16 or 17 satellites in orbit. I would have to do the exact count. Um, we are planning to launch another 30 in the next years to come. [00:08:20] We have at least two more satellites in 2025 to launch. Um, we will launch more.[00:08:30]

[00:08:30] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:30] Robert: In the near future,

[00:08:31] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:32] Robert: first of all, to try new technologies, but also to serve the Europeans and the world with [00:08:40] getting scientific data on the status of our planet.

[00:08:43] Markus: That's interesting. It's like, um, like being able to at some point [00:08:50] ask Earth about her state. Um, that is interesting because if you get like, what kind of data are we talking about? Like humidity?

[00:08:59] Robert: Uh, [00:09:00] we have a lot of different satellites. Big advantage of all these satellites is you don't have to go and measure on the [00:09:10] ground.

[00:09:10] Robert: Mm-hmm. Which can be difficult if you're thinking about the polar regions. Difficult to get to, difficult to measure. It can also be dangerous talking about [00:09:20] political problems. Um, talking about the oceans where we don't have so many stations to measure, you need a boat to go there. You can only measure at one point [00:09:30] with the satellites, we get a global picture more or less every day, and that's the huge advantage of the satellites.

[00:09:36] Robert: It's independent. We don't ha have to [00:09:40] rely on anybody, we can measure anywhere we want because it's not part of the airspace of the P of the countries. We get the global picture taken all [00:09:50] by the same. The measurements are all taken by the same instrument, so it's also comparable and we get it on a regular basis and it's relatively cheap.[00:10:00]

[00:10:00] Robert: Hmm. And we get data from the regions, which is hard to get to. As I mentioned, the a polar regions. Big areas of the oceans. Now, if you want to measure a sea surface [00:10:10] temperature, for example, which is changing with a globe, with a warming planet, we have a warming ocean as well. Um, if you want to measure that on a regular basis to have [00:10:20] reliable data on how the temperatures in the oceans are changing, you need to rely on satellites to measure.

[00:10:28] Markus: Now that is really interesting. We, I mean, [00:10:30] like, how does that work? Um, you can't put a thermometer into the ocean so easily. Well, you could, but not at [00:10:40] that scale. So how does it work from a satellite and, and how accurate can you go?

[00:10:46] Robert: Well, the, the thing is, um, yes, you can put [00:10:50] a thermometer in the ocean and there are many out there drift boys, which are drifting around in the oceans and. Again, via [00:11:00] satellite, delivering the data to, uh, ground stations, what they're measuring.

[00:11:05] Robert: But there are many problems in that. Um. As [00:11:10] always, if you look in the details, it starts getting more difficult. But these boys can't be everywhere and they're drifting with the ocean. So you, you do get some measurements and we [00:11:20] use them to verify what we measure with the satellites. 'cause you have, we have to make sure it's correct.

[00:11:25] Robert: The measuring the ocean temperature from space is. [00:11:30] Not as difficult as it may sound. It sounds

[00:11:34] Markus: It sounds difficult.

[00:11:35] Robert: We have a, a sensor on board, which is measuring what we [00:11:40] call the far in, the far infrared, the wavelengths around 10 to 12 microns, something like that. So still relatively short, but a lot, lot [00:11:50] longer wavelengths than what we can see than the visual light.

[00:11:54] Robert: Mm-hmm. Now, with an increasing temperature, you get. With the increasing [00:12:00] wavelengths, you get the lower signal. So we are measuring the thermal radiation that Earth is sending into space. [00:12:10] So basically if you picture a, a rock lying on, on the ground, a black rock ideally, and you have the sun [00:12:20] shining on it and you hold your hand over it in the summer, you can feel that it's hot.

[00:12:24] Robert: The radiation, this is what we're measuring. Over the ocean. It's relatively [00:12:30] easy in comparison to overland because the ocean spectrally. So for our instrument, it always looks the same. Mm-hmm. So we know what [00:12:40] water looks like in this specific wavelength, so we can correct the atmospheric influence because if there's a lot of haze mm-hmm.

[00:12:48] Robert: Of course your temper jump, [00:12:50] uh, measurements are off. They're not correct. Not to mention higher clouds, high humidity over the water surface, things [00:13:00] like that, we can eliminate that relatively well over the oceans. So because we know the spectral behavior of water, we are always looking at the same thing.

[00:13:08] Robert: We're always looking at water. [00:13:10] So this makes it easier to measure. And what we're measuring is the top, what we call skin [00:13:20] temperature. So we're just measuring the top millimeters of the ocean surface. That's the temperature we're measuring. What we want to have is what we [00:13:30] call bulk temperature at the depth of 50 centimeters roughly.

[00:13:35] Robert: But this you can calculate using certain formulas which [00:13:40] exist. So that's what we're doing. We're measuring global. Ocean temperature. And with the help of models, we are deriving ocean maps off the [00:13:50] ocean temperature on a daily basis.

[00:13:52] Markus: This is crazy. You know that. This is absolutely crazy. How accurate are those measurements?

[00:13:59] Robert: [00:14:00] Over the water, the sea surface temperature is relatively accurate. We should have at at least, uh, the maximum era of 10%.

[00:14:08] Markus: Wow. [00:14:10] Wow.

[00:14:11] Robert: So that's pretty accurate. And also, we're eliminating errors by doing a lot of measurements. [00:14:20] So we're taking the average over a longer

[00:14:22] Markus: So that means, um, looking at time series, that means we can pretty much know how oceans are cooling, [00:14:30] warming up, cooling, fluctuate over a year,

[00:14:33] Robert: here. Yes.

[00:14:34] Markus: And then over 10 years how the fluctuations fluctuate.

[00:14:37] Robert: And we see also, of course the different [00:14:40] areas because the oceans do are not of the same temperature everywhere. Of course cold at the poles, relatively warm in the tropical areas and [00:14:50] always trying to compensate. Mm.

[00:14:53] Markus: So it's a self-regulating

[00:14:55] Robert: a cell.

[00:14:55] Robert: There is the temperature is one of the two main driver of the ocean currents. [00:15:00] The other one is salt. Mm-hmm. So salinity. Um, and the temperature drives ocean currents. For example, the Gulf Stream, [00:15:10] this is the biggest energy transport system together with the atmosphere that we have on our planet. It's transporting warm water from.

[00:15:18] Robert: Tropics from the area [00:15:20] around the equator to the colder polar regions, to the North Poland to the South Pole, and that leads to moderation in the temperature it leads to, to the [00:15:30] fact that the colds don't get colder and colder and colder, and the equatorial region doesn't get warmer and warmer and warmer.

[00:15:36] Robert: So it cools the equator area. It warms the [00:15:40] poles and it. It takes care of a huge transport system, and these ocean currents have a huge impact on [00:15:50] our planet. So it's only so warm in Northern Europe, Ireland, uk, Northern Norway because of the Gulf [00:16:00] Stream. Otherwise, it would be a lot colder in these regions.

[00:16:03] Robert: Also cold ocean currents play an important role. For example, on the Southern Hemisphere, [00:16:10] there are two areas where there's cold water coming up from Antarctica, being transported north, and then coming up [00:16:20] to the surface of the west coast of South Africa, and off the west coast of South America. And on both these coasts you have large [00:16:30] deserts, the at Kama mm-hmm.

[00:16:32] Robert: In South America and the NAMI in, and, and then the Kalahari in South Africa. And [00:16:40] these are there, these deserts are there also, to a certain extent in Australia, they are there because of the cold water upwelling

[00:16:49] Markus: [00:16:50] Mm,

[00:16:51] Robert: because it keeps the humid, moist air coming over the ocean. It comes over the cold water, the air [00:17:00] masses.

[00:17:00] Robert: Cool. Mm-hmm. The rain falls down and no humidity reaches the land.

[00:17:06] Markus: Interesting.

[00:17:07] Robert: So it's basically like an air [00:17:10] wall keeping the water away. Wow.

[00:17:12] Markus: So with changing water temperatures now, we may also see a changing vegetation that those [00:17:20] deserts at some point may disappear because water temperatures are changing. Yeah.

[00:17:25] Robert: Yes. We see a lot of effects of water changing. One that you don't immediately [00:17:30] relate to warming. Water is sea level.

[00:17:34] Markus: Sea levels.

[00:17:35] Robert: see increases in, we, I mean, we see sea level [00:17:40] rising. We've seen that for, since the industrial revolution began, since the, the atmosphere is warming. Everybody [00:17:50] associates melting glaciers with a rising sea level, so the glaciers melt, the water flows into the ocean, the sea level rises.

[00:17:55] Robert: This is relatively obvious and relatively simple, but [00:18:00] almost half of the sea level rise that we see today comes from the warming of the oceans. Because the water is getting warmer, it's getting warmer, slower [00:18:10] than the atmosphere, than the air, because water is just reacting slower, but the water temperatures are rising.

[00:18:18] Robert: We see that in our data, [00:18:20] and therefore the water expense because it's getting warmer, but it has nowhere to go. So the sea levels rise. Oh, currently we see [00:18:30] sea level rise of around five millimeters per year. Recently, over the last 30 years, we see around three millimeters per year. But it's [00:18:40] like everything.

[00:18:40] Robert: It's getting faster, it's accelerating. And we estimate, say that almost 50% there, there's some [00:18:50] margin here, um, come from the increase in the temperature of the oceans. Wow.

[00:18:56] Markus: Wow.

[00:18:56] Robert: The other half comes from melting glacier and

[00:18:58] Markus: Now this is, this is [00:19:00] unexpected. I always figured that sea level rise is related to the melting of ice, but this is

[00:19:06] Robert: It is of course related to the melting of ice percent, but [00:19:10] almost half comes from the rice and sea level. With expansion. Yes. From thermal expansion.

[00:19:15] Markus: Wow.

[00:19:16] Robert: Wow. And

[00:19:18] Markus: I would like to, to to [00:19:20] read something to you and just, um, remembered, um, two or three weeks ago when you did that presentation at our electronica. [00:19:30] I was so blown away by your presentation, by the way, hold on. And I posted something on LinkedIn. And that [00:19:40] LinkedIn produced an interesting reply from a person.

[00:19:45] Markus: This person more or less said, hold on. [00:19:50] That all this, what we're seeing here is nonsense And, and the world is losing attention in all of this, what you're saying and what our [00:20:00] satellites are telling us, because this is not a business, not a viable business model for scientists.

[00:20:07] Markus: So scientists are stopping to look [00:20:10] into all this and that all these data that we're seeing here are ridiculous. ,. 

[00:20:16] Robert: We shoot up the satellites, we operate them, and we deliver the data. We [00:20:20] deliver the hard facts, like it or not. That's what we're measuring. Mm-hmm. It's not, we're not interpreting this as the space agency. We're just [00:20:30] delivering the data.

[00:20:31] Robert: Scientists around the world can access this data free and open. It's not controlled in any way. Everybody in the world, [00:20:40] so every scientist on this planet, serious scientists can recalculate what other people [00:20:50] have done, and that's happening and that's how science works. You review things other people have. Calculated [00:21:00] and you confirm it or you question it, you discuss it, and then you have, you draw your conclusions. There is very little now, [00:21:10] no discussion anymore that the climate is changing, things are happening, and that it's because of an increase [00:21:20] mainly in carbon dioxide, concentrations in the atmosphere.

[00:21:23] Markus: so this is like questioning the measurement of a thermometer on.[00:21:30]

[00:21:30] Robert: on

[00:21:31] Markus: Under your baby's arm when the baby may have higher temperature, elevated temperature. This is not up for interpretation. This [00:21:40] is a fact.

[00:21:40] Robert: It's a fact. It's, it's measured, it's a fact. And it's also not a matter of believing or not, it's [00:21:50] not a religion.

[00:21:50] Markus: Um, can I ask you, is someone paying you to say this? Because people, I I know we

[00:21:56] Robert: Oh yeah, I know that people are saying that this is complete [00:22:00] ridiculous. Yeah. Of, of course I'm getting paid for my work. Yes. Um, but I'm not getting paid because I'm saying certain things. We are just putting the facts on the table [00:22:10] and we're not the only ones. I mean about 99.9% of the scientists out there agree on climate change as a fact [00:22:20] and.

[00:22:21] Robert: That it is manmade. It's us, and it's due to burning fossil fuels mainly. And [00:22:30] the consequences are clear. We see increases in temperature. We see melting, ice melting glaciers. We can measure that. We can quantify that. We can [00:22:40] tell you exactly how many kilograms or tons of ice cream that is used losing. It starts getting a bit tricky when we're predicting it into the future.

[00:22:49] Robert: Yes, we [00:22:50] know that that's why we're working on better models. Um, but looking at the near future, and especially the past, there's no question about that. We see an [00:23:00] increase in sea level, um, and we see an increase in extreme events. Call it whatever you want. Weather events, extreme floods [00:23:10] due to higher sea levels due to stronger storms.

[00:23:15] Markus: All

[00:23:16] Robert: There is a debate, but that's also part of being [00:23:20] in a scientific environment and working scientifically. There's a debate, but we do see changes. We do see changes in the wind system. We [00:23:30] do see slower. Drifts of storm systems, which causes more flooding because the storm systems stay in the same place longer.

[00:23:39] Robert: [00:23:40] Details need to be discussed there, but in general, we are seeing all this. There's no doubt about

[00:23:45] Markus: I once, I once had a fun discussion with someone from nasa and we talked [00:23:50] about extraterrestrial intelligences and whatnot, and I asked the NASA person very bluntly, are you being paid to, [00:24:00] to, to deny the fact that you know something? And they, they laughed out loud and said, listen. We are such a huge agency, it, [00:24:10] if there were something out there, we wouldn't be able to contain it because someone would talk about it.

[00:24:15] Markus: Yeah. And I think this is, uh, the same holds true maybe for the [00:24:20] discussion we're having right now. You cannot pay tens of thousands of scientists and no one talks about it openly. There

[00:24:27] Robert: are other people who I've been accused of being, [00:24:30] I, I had to Google the word a climate beneficiary.

[00:24:34] Robert: Okay. So benefiting from climate change in a sense that [00:24:40] we are doing research which confirms climate change. And because there's funding in this area, we are doing more of this. This is not true. [00:24:50] We are not doing this. We are doing science. We are. Following where the questions are. Mm. And we've been doing this for a long time, [00:25:00] and 20, 30 years ago, the discussion about climate change was different than it is today.

[00:25:05] Robert: And I've been in the business long enough to see these changes. Mm. And. [00:25:10] Up up to 10 years ago, 15, if you would've asked a serious scientist about this climate change discussion, they were a lot more reluctant [00:25:20] to be as clear as we are as a scientific community today because things were not so clear. The data situation was [00:25:30] different.

[00:25:30] Robert: We talk about climate when we have 30 years of data. We didn't have that at that time. Today we do. We have 30 years of sea level rise. We have 30 years of sea surface [00:25:40] temperature. We have 30 years of ice changes in the polar regions, and we didn't have that. And now it becomes more and more clear. There is a saying in climate.[00:25:50]

[00:25:50] Robert: Needs 30 years of statistical statistics to be able to see if we get the cha change. And we do have that now. Climate basically is what you expect. [00:26:00] Weather is what you get. And this you have to understand. We can still have cold winters, we can still have warm, um, summers [00:26:10] or cold summers. It still means that the long term trend is changing, and that's what we're looking at when we talk about climate.

[00:26:19] Robert: Yes. [00:26:20] It's not the short term changes in the weather. Yes.

[00:26:23] Markus: I think what, what some people also tend to forget is to understand how science works. Because [00:26:30] science is also a very, is also very critical, uh, when it comes to. New insights because as a sign, I'm not telling you anything you, I [00:26:40] just wanted to reiterate that for our listeners, if you come up with something new, hoards upon hoards of scientists will try to dis disprove you [00:26:50] and through and try to falsify your claim.

[00:26:53] Markus: So this is a self cleansing system and if no one [00:27:00] can falsify. You are postulating, then the likelihood is that this agrees with reality.[00:27:10]

[00:27:10] Robert: There were many examples of that in the past. One is, for example, when they, um, uh, came up with the drifting [00:27:20] continents, Alfred Wegner mm-hmm. Um, came up with this theory.

[00:27:24] Robert: I can't remember when, um, that the continents are drifting apart. We know today for a [00:27:30] fact that this is the case, but when he first tried to prove that it was very, um, much discussed in the scientific [00:27:40] community and questioned and again and again. The same is true for the ICE ages. About 20,000 years ago, the lost Ice age 15,000 years ago, last Ice Age, [00:27:50] ended on the Northern Hemisphere at least.

[00:27:52] Robert: Can't remember what's happened on the Southern one. Um, and when they first came up with this theory, [00:28:00] uh, I think in Switzerland, but I'm, I'm not a hundred percent sure about that. Um, they were discussing that and debating that and questioning that for [00:28:10] years mm-hmm. Until somebody proved. With many, many, mm-hmm.

[00:28:15] Robert: Small little details in this game mm-hmm. To [00:28:20] show that this is a valid theory and today it's widely accepted

[00:28:26] Markus: Hmm,

[00:28:27] Robert: and that's how science works. Yes.

[00:28:28] Markus: Hmm. [00:28:30] Let's, um, talk about a lot more important things than those guys trying to disprove what [00:28:40] has been observed for decades now. Um, what is one is what is one of your favorite or most surprising observation that earth [00:28:50] observation has made so far? Maybe a very personal one.

[00:28:57] Robert: Maybe it's not an observation, but what we've started [00:29:00] to do 20 years ago, 25 years ago, when the satellite data become became higher resolution, satellite data became available. [00:29:10] And also processable, I should probably say. Um, because the problem in the beginning 25 years ago was that the data was so large that [00:29:20] it was difficult to process on a normal personal computer.

[00:29:22] Robert: So you needed really specialized computers with specialized software for image processing, which was completely different to [00:29:30] today's Photoshop or whatever you call it. And, um, we started. To process data from an [00:29:40] aesthetic point of view. Mm-hmm. So we started doing art based on satellite data. Mm-hmm. That was a little site activity.

[00:29:49] Robert: It had [00:29:50] nothing to do with our work really. Um, and we discovered that the best areas to go to for doing this are the areas where we haven't [00:30:00] changed our planet so much. Mm-hmm. The rainforest untouched. The deserts, the vast ice areas of Antarctic and Greenland. That's where we [00:30:10] found the data, which was very graphical.

[00:30:13] Robert: Which was very

[00:30:15] Markus: pristine,

[00:30:15] Robert: Pristine. And that was really cool. And [00:30:20] after some time. Of doing that. We also got some attention for that. And we organized exhibitions, printed, produced some books, which were really [00:30:30] something new at that time. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So it was not a scientific observation, it was more finding

[00:30:35] Markus: beauty,

[00:30:36] Robert: a new purpose Yes.

[00:30:37] Robert: For using scientific data in a way. [00:30:40] Mm-hmm. Um, which paved the ground a bit also for scientific visualization. Mm-hmm. At that time, which was not so common then.

[00:30:49] Markus: Yeah. But [00:30:50] these areas are different today. So you take a look at the rainforest, they're vanishing.

[00:30:56] Robert: Yes.

[00:30:57] Markus: The ice shields are changing. [00:31:00] The deserts may be still, they're still around. So they're the least changing

[00:31:03] Robert: places. They are. They're changing fast. It's just takes a long time. Ah, Greenland is [00:31:10] covered by a very, very thick cover of ice, so it will take, even if it melts fast, it would take, still take a long time because it's so thick. [00:31:20] You see it along the coastal regions Yes. Mm-hmm.

[00:31:23] Robert: Where the ice is getting less. Mm-hmm.

[00:31:27] Markus: Um,

[00:31:27] Robert: Um, but in general, [00:31:30] the glaciers are melting fast, especially in the mountain areas. Mm. Greenland is maybe not such a good example. Mm-hmm. Because there's a lot of ice there. Mm-hmm. But if you're looking in the Alaya, [00:31:40] in the, the, any. Higher mountain range, no matter if it's in Africa, Kilimanjaro, or if it's in North America, you or the Alps, [00:31:50] you see glaciers are vanishing.

[00:31:52] Robert: And,

[00:31:52] Markus: and you know what, I'm experiencing this myself that. The mountains are changing. Um, [00:32:00] I, I'm regularly in the alps, in the mountains, higher up, um, doing my, what I love to do most, being out there, what I see is that the [00:32:10] thawing of the permafrost, like the, the frozen soil, um, makes the ground and the rocks unstable.

[00:32:18] Markus: And [00:32:20] everywhere you go, you go. There is landslides and, and, and rock slides. Rock falls. This is something that hasn't happened 10 years ago. [00:32:30] This is happening now, and now I, I experienced it personally this summer and ever since I'm experiencing it, I'm on the lookout for similar observations [00:32:40] and so I'm, I'm sort of in a bubble of people or.

[00:32:45] Markus: Algorithms showing me recurrent events of, of falling [00:32:50] places in the, in the mountains. So this is something that is truly reshaping the Alps as we see them today. So they are literally crumbling.

[00:32:58] Robert: It's, it's a natural [00:33:00] process. Mm. Called erosion. Mm, yes. The Alps yes, will eventually disappear. It will take millions of years, [00:33:10] but because of the erosion, but we are seeing an A change in the frequency and also in the, in the size of [00:33:20] landslides because they've been basically glued together by the frozen underground.

[00:33:28] Robert: Yeah. And if the. [00:33:30] Ice or the frozen ground, which is held together by the ice in it because it's constantly under zero, so it's constantly frozen. If that melts, then of course it [00:33:40] releases bigger. It's just chunks pile, yeah. Of debris.

[00:33:45] Markus: Mm mm

[00:33:47] Robert: And that's what we're seeing. This has always been [00:33:50] the case, but it's increasing.

[00:33:51] Markus: Yes. Yes. Um, this is also related. So erosion is related [00:34:00] to a natural force, and that natural force is called gravity. Hmm. So, because gravity wants to pull the mountains down and flatten [00:34:10] the earth, gravitational observation is also something that, um. Um, sentinels. Do so tell [00:34:20] us more about this, because this is a most fascinating observation that you're making to build gravitational maps of Earth and why that is

[00:34:29] Robert: Actually, it [00:34:30] was, um, we have gravity observations going back quite a bit, but um, specifically we had one satellite called Goche, which was [00:34:40] not a copen mission. It wasn't one of our science mission. Mm-hmm. Launched, I think in 2009 and it created what? To my knowledge is still the [00:34:50] most accurate model, JOE, basically showing the gravity on earth.

[00:34:57] Robert: The, the project manager told me once that he, [00:35:00] the mission they built is measuring gravity within accuracy, which is high enough to measure if a snowflake falls on a super tanker. [00:35:10] Really?

[00:35:11] Markus: Really,

[00:35:12] Robert: that's the change in gravity. They're measuring.

[00:35:15] Markus: Wow.

[00:35:16] Robert: So quite impressive. I find if you picture that, [00:35:20] um, what the gravity map shows.

[00:35:22] Markus: I love science, because this blows my mind. Yeah, there's this

[00:35:25] Robert: it's incredible. This thing is really, was an incredible mission. It flew very low, [00:35:30] so it didn't live very long. It only flew at 250 kilometers and then even lower towards the end because it's exponential, the gravity decreases exponentially.

[00:35:39] Robert: So the [00:35:40] further you're away, the more difficult it becomes to measure it.

[00:35:42] Markus: Hold on. Uh, uh, before we go into into detail, so the satellite mission was relatively short.

[00:35:49] Robert: Yes. [00:35:50] Two years or something like that.

[00:35:51] Markus: And it started. Can you tell us more about how it started outward and then closed in on Earth? It,

[00:35:57] Robert: it started at a, oh, [00:36:00] it's been a while.

[00:36:01] Robert: Okay. So, and it's not exactly my super expertise gravity, I can tell you that. Uh, um. [00:36:10] Satellite was launched in a, in, basically it was kept in a constant free fall. Mm-hmm. So it was basically weightless, if you want [00:36:20] to call it that. It was flying around at 250 kilometers. It had a little engine boost, like a booster, but not driven by rocket fuel, [00:36:30] but it was an electric engine.

[00:36:32] Robert: Mm-hmm. A iron thruster. Mm-hmm. So basically gave this.

[00:36:37] Markus: mm-hmm.

[00:36:38] Robert: Like if you're

[00:36:39] Markus: [00:36:40] Constantly

[00:36:40] Robert: exhaling, constantly a bit stronger, um, to keep the satellite in a free fly mode. So the satellite was part of the [00:36:50] instrument? Mm. Because if the gravity is higher, the satellite will sink. The gravity is lower, it will go up

[00:36:56] Markus: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:36:56] Robert: So the gravity position. Was [00:37:00] one of the measurements. And then it had gravity radiometers inside that could measure the differences. Mm-hmm. In the gravity field inside the satellite basically. So it's a bit [00:37:10] complicated, but in the end, we created the most accurate gravity map of our planet that exists on until today, and it shows [00:37:20] especially over the oceans, and it's called goche.

[00:37:22] Robert: And OCHE stands for ocean. And the c and E stands for. Circulation explorer. It [00:37:30] was about ocean currents and sea level. Why we wanted this gravity mission or this gravity data set. Because if you want to measure sea level change, [00:37:40] which we are also doing, losing, using Sentinel six, for example, one of the ERUs missions.

[00:37:44] Robert: But also we have a very long record of sea level change. One of the longest we have [00:37:50] based on satellites.

[00:37:53] Robert: If you want to measure changes in sea level, from space, from Hoff, you have a problem that, of [00:38:00] course there are waves, there are tights, there are all kinds of things that are influencing your sea level measurements. We can calculate all that out relatively well. [00:38:10] But one thing which is difficult is the gravity, because the gravity field creates a height difference in the oceans of around 200 meters.[00:38:20]

[00:38:20] Robert: So if you're measuring something that's changing at a rate of three to five millimeters per year, you better get your gravity right. Otherwise you don't have an accurate [00:38:30] measurement. And these gravity measurements are really accurate because it matters because where the gravity is high, the water is being pulled to.

[00:38:39] Robert: [00:38:40] Mm-hmm. So it accumulates. And where the gravity is low, the water's flowing away to the areas where the gravity is higher. Hmm. So you get valleys and mountains. [00:38:50] Over very, very large areas, but still the differences are significant. And in order to get proper measurements of sea level change, you need a good gravity map.

[00:38:59] Robert: You also need it for [00:39:00] engineering projects and other things, but that's one scientific application is measurement of sea level.

[00:39:06] Markus: wait, would, would that mean that, [00:39:10] um, the surface of the ocean is not flat? Yes.

[00:39:15] Robert: Yes.

[00:39:17] Markus: What? Yes, it

[00:39:18] Robert: means the surface of the ocean is no [00:39:20] flat. 

[00:39:20] Markus: So what you're saying is that the surface of the ocean is not flat. Yes, that's

[00:39:29] Robert: that's what we were [00:39:30] saying.

[00:39:31] Markus: Hold on. Um, if you look at a lake,

[00:39:36] Robert: lake

[00:39:37] Markus: the lake seems to be flat. It's frozen over, it's [00:39:40] flat. And you're saying otherwise,

[00:39:43] Robert: I'm saying if you look at the ocean, it's not flat because we're talking very long distance.[00:39:50]

[00:39:50] Robert: So we're saying that if you travel from the southern tip of India, westwards over the Indian Ocean into the Red Sea, [00:40:00] and then into the Mediterranean, we're talking, I have no clue how far that is, 3000, 4,000 kilometers, something like that. And you're climbing. [00:40:10] Climbing up around a hundred meters, 150 meters, a hundred meters.

[00:40:16] Robert: So it's a very, very [00:40:20] gradual slope.

[00:40:21] Markus: but still it is a

[00:40:22] Robert: still measuring something at three millimeters to five millimeters per year, you still have to take that into account.[00:40:30]

[00:40:30] Markus: So that means just to, to wrap my, my feeble mind around all this, the surface of the oceans is [00:40:40] more or less a flowing hill,

[00:40:43] Robert: uh,

[00:40:44] Markus: a, a landscape like, like flowing hills and valleys.

[00:40:47] Robert: but it, but it's staying.

[00:40:48] Robert: It's more or less stable in the [00:40:50] due to the gravity. Of course, it's influenced by other factors as well, like a low pressure system or a high pressure system. You have it. Slight change in the [00:41:00] sea level, changes in the tempera. For example, as a phenomenon in the South Pacific Ocean where warm water suddenly comes to the [00:41:10] coast of South America due to certain conditions in Asia, um, the water worms.

[00:41:16] Robert: So it expands. So the sea level will change at in there. So [00:41:20] yes, there are other factors influencing it as well, but there's always the background of the gravity, which keeps the shape. Wow.

[00:41:28] Markus: Why is it important that we know about [00:41:30] gravity? Uh, why do we need a gravitational map? Is it because the ships then can find the best route through, [00:41:40] or no,

[00:41:40] Robert: doesn't play a role for that, I would say, but we needed to, to create actual accurate measurements of this ocean surface. But we also needed for, [00:41:50] uh, calibrating measurement in measurements. For example, if you build. Big project, a tunnel project, um, through the Alps, or [00:42:00] like for between the UK and France and Europe or France.

[00:42:04] Robert: Mm-hmm. Um, you start on two sides, so you better calibrate your [00:42:10] measurements to meet in the middle. Mm-hmm.

[00:42:11] Markus: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:12] Robert: That's where, and big engineering projects, that's where you need a gravity map as well.

[00:42:18] Markus: Wow. And this [00:42:20] is all related to Earth observation. I love it. Love it. This is,

[00:42:24] Robert: I'm pretty sure there are other ways to get a Gravity model regional.

[00:42:27] Robert: Yeah. For smaller things. Yeah. But for the [00:42:30] global perspective, earth observation is certainly the tool to use. Wow.

[00:42:35] Markus: Where is all this headed? So what are the, the next [00:42:40] projects that Earth Observation is cooking up is envisioning for the next couple of years

[00:42:47] Robert: We are looking into different [00:42:50] aspects. One is, and that's important, but it's not so thrilling, is maintaining the operational services and making sure we get the data also in [00:43:00] the future, which means for Copernicus, for the European unions.

[00:43:05] Robert: Earth Observation Program, the biggest earth observation program in the world. [00:43:10] Probably the most, I think we're have a lot of people who envy us for that, that Europe has built an operational earth observation program, which serves a [00:43:20] lot of purposes and we need to maintain that.

[00:43:24] Markus: And that is, that's the Copernicus

[00:43:26] Robert: That's Copernicus, which is looking into [00:43:30] sentinel.

[00:43:30] Robert: Yes. This is looking into oceans, into the atmosphere, into emergency management, into climate, into all these areas, agriculture, [00:43:40] everywhere where satellite data can help. We need to make sure that we. Can deliver this data also for in 10 years and 20 years [00:43:50] because there are whole businesses and also services built on this data, which have play a role for safety, [00:44:00] like aviation safety, but also, um, ships iceberg warnings, yield prediction for agriculture.

[00:44:08] Robert: All these [00:44:10] things which require big area information. On a regular basis. And the other one is metrology. Weather forecasts. We need good weather [00:44:20] forecasts. They play a vital role for our economy, for our wellbeing. Storm warnings, hurricane warnings, but also um, drought and [00:44:30] flood warnings. Airplanes that fly need good weather forecasts, ships.

[00:44:37] Robert: But that's really interesting. So that [00:44:40] means, um,

[00:44:41] Markus: that other nations, other countries are relying on the Copernicus data, uh, from

[00:44:47] Robert: at least they can rely on that. Yes. [00:44:50] And

[00:44:52] Markus: Do you happen to know why it is that the Europeans have that weather or earth observation awareness while others don't? I mean, like [00:45:00] I was, I figured that the Americans would have a similar program.

[00:45:04] Robert: The Americans do in the moment not have a similar program talking weather forecast. This is [00:45:10] widely accepted and there is a global network of weather satellites where we are as Europe. Europe we are part of, okay, they're the Japanese, the Indians. The US especially, [00:45:20] or North America, have very comparable satellites and very comparable systems.

[00:45:25] Robert: Um, and this is a global network of data, which is also accessible [00:45:30] by other nations and everybody, because weather is coming from further away then what our satellites can see now. For [00:45:40] the Copernicus program, for the operational services of higher resolution and other satellites, there is nothing comparable.

[00:45:46] Robert: There are some activities of course going on in India and China and [00:45:50] Japan. We also do a lot of collaboration with Japan, for example, but also with others, um, the US of course. Um, and this, [00:46:00] this, but there is nothing which is really comparable to Copernicus in the moment. Okay. And that's, that's one thing.

[00:46:08] Robert: But what we're also doing is [00:46:10] we are looking into new satellites, into new mission. We've just launched a satellite, which is called biomass. It will allow us to estimate biomass on the ground, [00:46:20] which in forests, in, in different environments. Which is important because we can estimate where is, where is forest, but we cannot [00:46:30] really estimate the biomass accurately.

[00:46:31] Robert: But it's an experimental satellite, very interesting mission. We will see what that brings. 'cause it does play a big role [00:46:40] in CO2 absorption in environmental monitoring and mapping and things like. Another very important mission we're going to launch. I find that one of the most [00:46:50] important ones, it's going to be within the Copernicus program.

[00:46:52] Robert: It's called CO2 M. So the CO2 mission, it will measure emissions from of carbon [00:47:00] dioxide for the first time, from space in an accuracy and also in a resolution that you can create maps of. Carbon [00:47:10] dioxide emissions in whatever, tons per square kilometer or whatever the unit is, um, over. So you can say, okay, this is a [00:47:20] huge, uh, industry agglomeration and they're emitting together, or a bigger city, they're emitting this much.

[00:47:28] Robert: Carbon dioxide [00:47:30] per month, per year, whatever. And this we cannot do in the moment. We cannot quantify that from pace. We can only measure it on the ground. And, and this will be a game [00:47:40] changer in understanding emissions on a global scale.

[00:47:43] Markus: Wow. But all in all, um, that means you are giving [00:47:50] evermore data points to what Earth is doing. In reality, it's heating up, it's has emissions. It [00:48:00] loses or gains biomass. Its glaciers, melt or grow. That means we are gi, giving [00:48:10] earth, or we are, we are building a mirror of earth. We can perhaps look into and, and, and ask questions [00:48:20] towards.

[00:48:20] Markus: So we can ask Earth, Hey Earth. Um. Not only how do, how do you feel about this and that, but hey Earth, what is [00:48:30] happening over 10 years in this and that region? And why is that? And Earth can give you a reply, [00:48:40] um, and you may be even able to translate that reply so everyone is able to understand it because those satellites, they're producing very incomprehensible data.[00:48:50]

[00:48:51] Robert: I, um, we are. Involved heavily in a project which is called Digital Twin Earth, which has exactly that objective.

[00:48:59] Robert: Build a digital [00:49:00] twin of our planet and see to be able to simulate what happens if, if we continue to do this like that, what will be the consequences?

[00:49:08] Markus: And this digital twin [00:49:10] is based on real data.

[00:49:11] Robert: The digital twin is based on real data and also on modeling for the future, of course. And it is, um, based on the expertise [00:49:20] of many institutions, um.

[00:49:23] Robert: Including the European Commission, including Issa, including Yu Met, sat, including also uh, E-C-M-W-F. [00:49:30] So the European Center for Medium Range Rather Forecast. And it's supposed to be able to give you an answer to the questions, what happens if we continue [00:49:40] emitting this much? What consequences does it have for the environment, for the economy, for the climate, for the weather, for and things like that.

[00:49:48] Robert: And that's what we're working on. Interesting. [00:49:50] It'll be a while, but.

[00:49:52] Markus: Robert, you have seen changes on our planet for more or less 30 years now.

[00:49:59] Robert: [00:50:00] Yeah. More. Almost 40. Yeah.

[00:50:01] Markus: 40. How do you feel about it personally? Well, does a scientist have a feeling at all?

[00:50:08] Robert: Oh

[00:50:08] Markus: yeah.[00:50:10]

[00:50:11] Robert: Um, I've been asking myself if, and I've heard, but I have not verified that, that a study came out recently.

[00:50:18] Robert: If people who are dealing with [00:50:20] environmental problems and satellite data are more often depressed than others, obviously this is not the case luckily, but

[00:50:26] Markus: you live in Italy, so it's hard to get

[00:50:29] Robert: That's true. [00:50:30] And also it's, um, I mean, you. We, we are contributing to communicating on this topic [00:50:40] and showing people what we are experiencing, what hap what's happening, but also possibly to show them what they [00:50:50] can contribute to change this.

[00:50:54] Robert: And there's a lot of discussion going on if Europe needs to lead [00:51:00] in climate protection. Or climate change mitigation. And, um, and [00:51:10] if I see that at least some, some people agree on the fact that we should lead and that we need to do something that's also a reward. So it's not [00:51:20] only depressing if you want to call it that, or at least worrying, it's also satisfying to see that we can, by putting the [00:51:30] facts on the table.

[00:51:32] Robert: A discussion started and possibly on the long term, hopefully also get people to the table to [00:51:40] discuss what has been agreed in Paris again, and to bring this on the political agenda to, to bring things forward.

[00:51:49] Markus: If you have a [00:51:50] visitor center here, how do people react to all this?

[00:51:53] Robert: Uh, it's a big problem for us. We have the visitor center and if we.

[00:51:59] Robert: Sent the kids [00:52:00] out after showing them for half an hour how terrible everything is. Um,

[00:52:06] Markus: You have a responsibility.

[00:52:07] Robert: have, yeah, it's a, it's, um, a [00:52:10] bit difficult. We try to, to give the people a positive feeling when they leave. In a sense that, and you need to do something. It's your generation who's [00:52:20] most going to be most affected, specifically with kids.

[00:52:23] Robert: Um, so we need to change things and what can I do? The kids ask and we say, well, [00:52:30] driveless use public transportation. Use the bicycle, emit less carbon dioxide. Don't eat so much [00:52:40] meat. All these things that everybody should know today. That's all we can do from our side. Then it's [00:52:50] up to politicians to take decisions based on.

[00:52:53] Robert: The data we put on the table. This happened before for ozone. You remember the ozone. Whole discussion [00:53:00] Fluorocarbons were banned within a very, very short time by an international consortium of a lot of countries. There it worked. Let's hope [00:53:10] that it will also work in the future for other problems.

[00:53:13] Markus: mm. Earth observation is earthbound. [00:53:20] I have a question I keep asking my guests, um, on a regular basis, if, if the call came, would you be ready to go into space [00:53:30] to explore the moon, the Mars, or whatnot? Not

[00:53:35] Robert: Not exactly my favorite thing to do. Go up in [00:53:40] space. I'm happy we have the satellites up there and look down. I'm not sure I would want to go there. Good.

[00:53:48] Markus: My next question, [00:53:50] um, Italy is a coffee place, so you, I'm not, don't have to tell you the effects of coffee, but the, the show here is [00:54:00] called the Space Cafe Podcast. It's a coffee place where we hang out and have more or less beautiful conversations. I wanna challenge you. [00:54:10] Mm. Sometimes you go into coffee places to energize yourself when you're tired and have a coffee and good, and off you go.

[00:54:17] Markus: Now I challenge you to share an espresso, a [00:54:20] coffee for the mind with me. An idea, um, a concept you feel like is worth sharing with the audience where you feel like, [00:54:30] this is inspiring, this is invigorating.

[00:54:34] Robert: Whatever

[00:54:35] Markus: Whatever topic you wanna share.

[00:54:37] Robert: share. Well, my topic is [00:54:40] data visualization and common and science communication. Which go together today, we're competing with [00:54:50] more and more improved visuals from everywhere. Around the world and as a scientific community, we need to [00:55:00] compete with the best cameramen in the PLA on the planet with the best film producers and storytellers on the planet. And we have to first of all, feed them with content [00:55:10] that can keep up with the quality they're providing.

[00:55:13] Robert: And also we need to tell what our data has to say in a way that the [00:55:20] people can understand it. And that's what. Post in the past and probably in the future, I find one of the biggest challenges, [00:55:30] specifically if you're talking about topics, which a lot of people now say, ah, I can't hear it anymore. Mm. I don't want to listen to it anymore.

[00:55:37] Robert: And keeping [00:55:40] the momentum up and talking about it anyway, I think is a challenge and something that's worth [00:55:50] thinking about.

[00:55:51] Markus: You know what? Just by the sparkle in your eyes when you talk about this, um, I still feel you have a very positive sense and a [00:56:00] positive attitude about all of this, and this, this is, I think, the most important thing because. Have seen it all. You've seen it all over the past 40 years, and still [00:56:10] I think there's hope.

[00:56:12] Robert: I'm absolutely sure there is hope, but we need to do something at some point, um, to make sure that this planet is still. [00:56:20] Comfortably livable by the future generations. Our grandchildren are going to see the effects of [00:56:30] some of the things we are doing and have been doing in the past 40, 50 years.

[00:56:36] Markus: Fantastic. Robert, thank you so much for taking the time. Thank

[00:56:39] Robert: you for having [00:56:40] me.

[00:56:41] Markus: What a ride, my friend. Wasn't it crazy, crazy interesting to see, to [00:56:50] see a completely new potential for an interface with an entire planet? This is what I'm taking away from from this conversation. So [00:57:00] Earth observation is not only providing data, weather data, which is super valuable. But it's also giving us the opportunity to chat with our planet, [00:57:10] we to chat with our own pale blue dot.

[00:57:13] Markus: And this is where things get really interesting. So, yeah. Um, hope, I hope as always that you are [00:57:20] appreciating what, what we're doing here as much as I do. I just do it for, yeah. For the fascination for all things science and all things space, [00:57:30] because this is really big. What's happening in our lifetimes while we're, I don't know, grow growing wings and becoming something else.[00:57:40]

[00:57:40] Markus: Well, yeah, I'm still, I'm not the youngest guy anymore, but still I'm, I feel like a child, um, whenever I'm talking about those things. So, [00:57:50] um, yeah, if you feel like a child, also maybe consider sharing it with other children in your vicinity in your world, because I guess perhaps there is [00:58:00] some who will dig what you love and what inspires you.

[00:58:04] Markus: So yeah, it would, would be a, a, a lot of fun and maybe share your [00:58:10] experiences. Um, with us at podcast at Space Watch Global or shoot me a note on LinkedIn. Um, you'll find me under my name. Thanks for listening. Thanks for [00:58:20] watching. Thanks for your loyalty, and I catch you in two weeks from now. Well, this is going to be a pretty, pretty cool episode.

[00:58:27] Markus: It's coming up, so stay tuned and stay curious. [00:58:30] Bye-bye.